Pardon my ignorance but what is the Tridentine Mass?
I have seen it in other threads, and know it refers to pre-Vatican II.
Pardon my ignorance but what is the Tridentine Mass?
I have seen it in other threads, and know it refers to pre-Vatican II.
It is the original Latin form of the mass, where it is said all most entirelly in latin, and the priest faces away from the congregation toward the crucifix. Those are the big differences. Hope that helps.
My dear friend, you have opened a can of worms here and no doubt will get many interesting replies. Since I’m up late, I’ll start with a simple one. This is a particular Rite that was one of the Mass options used before Vatican II. Some people just refer to it as “the way the Mass was before Vatican II” but there are some distinctions. But the key thing to know is it’s in Latin, follows the old practices of priest facing away from the congregation, is very formal, takes several hours. Some of it is just the form people love, candles, incense, chanting, etc. Others will fill in here with technical details, I just want to paint the big picture.
Now, the Tridentine Mass cannot be performed without permission from the bishop. Several decades ago, a little trend started here and there, mostly among old folks nostalgic for pre-V2 days, requesting this Mass. Then young people yearning for more traditionalism and tired of twanging electric guitars started to experience the beauty of the Tridentine Mass for the first time.
But now it has become controversial because of the SPPX’ers. (They name themselves after St. Pope Pius X.) These people have split off from the Catholic Church, they believe the Pope was not validly elected and is therefore not the Holy Father (the See is vacant), they perform this Mass and believe everything from Vatican II is invalid. They are in schism. The Pope has reached out to these folks to try to get them to rejoin the church, but basically they are heretics (even though possibly with good intentions).
Sadly, because of this, permission for the Tridentine Mass is now being withheld in certain diocese, or withdrawn. Although regular practicing Catholics may attend one if it’s offered by a Church in good standing, do be careful of being lured into a schismatic organization.
Mel Gibson’s father is one of these radical SPPX’ers who reject everything prior to Vatican II. Mel Gibson himself, sadly, is not really completely well-grounded in the Catholic faith, having being influenced by his dad, but because of his movie, he had tried to walk a fine line and seem like a “regular” Catholic. He is very devout and my hope is that he has gotten good advice from Priests and laypeople and will embrace TRUE Catholocism, and abandon some of his wacky ideas for starting his own church.
The Tridentine Mass is not right or wrong unto itself. If it’s performed with the permission of the bishop by a priest in good standing, in a Catholic parish or mission, no problem. But the SSPX’ers have sort of taken it over, and this is where people are getting confused. Well, I better let others contribute, I know on this site there must be some very good experts on this matter
Thanks Tyler and Agnes,
Sooooo, thats the name of the Mass my mum talks about
She is 58 so pre Vatican II, and has often told me that “in her day” the priest had his back to the congregation, and was said in latin.
I never knew all the other things such as the schism etc.
Now all the other threads and posts on here make sense
[quote=Agnes]Mel Gibson’s father is one of these radical SPPX’ers who reject everything prior to Vatican II.)
As far as I know, Hutton Gibson is a sedevacantist (one who believes there is no current valid pope), and is not associated with SSPX (which is not sedevacantist).
First off, the priest faces East and God, it is called Ad Orientem.
It is done mostly in Latin, sometimes it was done in Greek or Slavonic.
The Mass did not originate in Trent, so therefore the name “Tridentine” is a misnomer, it should really be called the Traditional Latin Mass.
SSPX are not sedevacantist, they do recongized the pope. I do not see any SSPXer’s holding any heresy, that is quite rude to call them heretics, at worst they are schismatics.
The Traditional Latin Mass maybe celebrated privately without permission from the Bishop.
Here is a quick overview of the major differences:
-Priest faces Ad Orientem
-Prayers of the Foot of the Altar
-Kyrie Elesion, Christe Elesion, Kyrie Elesion Thrice said
-The Missal moved from the Epstile side to the Gospel side indicating the move from the old testament to the new testament
-One Epsitle and one Gospel
-Gospel is read North.
-Domine non sum dignus(Thrice said instead of once)
-Communion in tongue only
-Communion while kneeling
-Longer Offertory and Lavabo
-Roman Canon only(Mysterium Fidei in the consercration prayer)
-Silent Roman Canon
-More kneeling for low Masses
-Solemn, Sung, Low Mass distinction
-Use of a subdeacon during a Solemn Mass
-no Altar girls
-3 Altar cards on the altar
-6 Candles for High Mass and 2 lit for Low Mass
-Coporal veil used
-no chalice offered
-Communion plate and paten is used
-Geneflection during the Creed and the Last Gospel
-Priest vestments are different
-there are probally more difference I have not touched
Here are the Proper Prayers of the Traditional Latin Mass:
Here is a comparision between the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Latin Mass:
Agnes wrote “You have opened a can of worms”, then goes on
to say that the Tridentine Mass is formal and the trend was
started mostly among OLD people. That dismisses it right
there, doesn’t it? Old people are not important in the scheme
of the New Age. The “SSPXers” has been addressed in
another reply, and also Mel Gibson. I get the feeling that
Agnes feels superior to the “old ways” and prefers the New
Age Mass and probably the New Age Church architecture.
But when people say that Vatican II “threw open the windows
of the Church”, I say, look what happened! The convents are
in complete disarray, inhabited by lesbians. The priesthood
has been taken over by the homosexuals, and the orders have
collapsed. Is this progress? Vatican II was hijacked by the
radicals, and I reject anything associated with the "Koombyah"
folks, and if that means going 75 miles on a Sunday to
Mass at St.John Cantius, then I will do it! I think it was Agnes
who opened a can of worms!
Agnes, your post is so full of mis-information…I don’t even know where to start! Check your facts and try again.
Actually if you want to call anyone heretics, it would be some of these NO priest. My in-law’s priest is constantly saying heretical things, such as referring to the Holy Ghost as She, the Holy Family was disfunctional because they lost Jesus for 3 days, not to mention his overall slovenly attitude in the presence of Our Lord. There is much more, actually I could probably write a book but I am trying to lower my blood pressure. It is a shame the SSPX won’t come back in the fold, because there would be so much good they could do along with the Fraternity of St. Peter. We just need to continue to pray.
Millie (Post #8), I am afraid I must not communicate well in writing because you have completely misunderstood me and for that I am sorry. Contrary to your assumption that I am a “new-ager” you would probably be hard-pressed to find a more traditional Catholic than me in my entire archdiocese. As far as your comments about “old” people, I am old myself, and I was not disparaging them but simply pointing out that alot of the demand for this originated years ago with those who missed the beauty of the pre-V2 Mass. I also did note that a benefit was that many young people were then introduced to things they had never experienced.
I stated outright that I am not an expert and that I was interested in other people’s information about all these related topics, Tridentine Mass, the schism, the Pope’s outreach efforts, etc. I cannot understand why I have been rather ruthlessly (and inaccurately) criticized for just sharing what I know. If I happen to be wrong about a point, I’m happy to be corrected, that is the advantage of an open forum, we all learn.
Sometimes people are so defensive on an issue, that we cannot receive with an open mind what someone else is trying to share, but project our own fears onto their words.
This arguement between the Traditional Mass and the New Mass reminds me of the division in Anglicanism - where I converted from - between the Prayerbook service and what they call the bas - book of alternative services. The prayerbook being the traditional service of which I was a part
I love the Catholic church but don’t like the music that I hear in it but I didn’t join the Catholic church for the music.
I do like the Traditional Mass.
God bless all
[quote=Agnes] But the key thing to know is it’s in Latin, follows the old practices of priest facing away from the congregation, is very formal, takes several hours.
Lest we scare anyone off, the last Traditional Latin Mass I attended lasted a little over an hour. It was low Mass; Mass with a Schola downtown here is under two hours. I have never heard of one that went on “several hours”.
At TLM, the homily is, of course, in the vernacular (English) and the readings are usually read in Latin and then in Engish. TLM missals have the Latin and English words so that anyone can follow along, even if you know no Latin.
Here is a good sermon by Fr. Victor O’praem about the Traditional Latin Mass:
I go to the TLM quite often, and its allways a high(sung) mass, and usually last at most an hour and 10 minuites. I have been to low masses with a sermon that were only 45 minuites long.
It is the original Latin form of the mass
I don’t think so.
The original Latin form of the mass was called the “original Roman Rite, not now used,” according to the 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia. You can read more here:
Catholic Encyclopedia - "Liturgy"
The SSPX are not heretics, but are schismatic in that they have created their own judicial tribunals in direct violation from what is prescribed by the Code of Canon Law. Their Superior General was excommunicated, which is another good indication they are a schismatic movement. They have no episcopal authority (no bishop that is not excommunicated), so their priests are not incardinated (have no jurisdiction). Consequently, their sacraments are illicit. The Society of St. Pius X are not listed in the Official Catholic Directory, which is another indication that they are a schismatic movement.
Pope John Paul II stated:
I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre [aka SSPX], that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.
(Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei (1988) vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html)
In the Diocese of Colorado Springs, where I live, the Latin Mass of the 1962 Roman Missal is celebrated with permission from Bishop Michael Sheridan, by a priest of the Fraternal Society of St. Peter, which is listed in the Official Catholic Directory.
[font=‘Times New Roman’]Honest discussion of the TLM is not opening a can of worms; it is educating the faithful of a liturgical OPTION and PRIVILEGE, made available to ALL Catholics by proclamation of the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, in the Apostolic Letter “ECCLESIA DEI” from July, 1988…which expounds on the Indult granted from the Congregation for Divine Worship in the document “QUATTUOR ABHINC ANNOS” from October, 1984.[/font]
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[font=‘Times New Roman’]Peace,[/font]
[font=‘Times New Roman’]Eric Malain[/font]
It is this…
I don’t know all the words and phrases to tell you what is the difference in the liturgy. I can only tell the difference in the experience.
I’ve been attending Mass at various parishes for about 6 months, it was interesting but not inspiring. I liked some better than others of course but I didn’t feel anything.
This weekend I attended my first Latin mass, it was awe-inspiring. I was in tears virtually the whole time. I didn’t understand a word of the liturgy, but it didn’t matter a bit. I purposefully didn’t follow along in the book. That, for me, is a way to intellectualize experiences.
Whered you get that beatiful artwork… and where can I find it?