Trinity from Egypt?


#1

Hello all. I was wondering if I could get some feedback and/or help in how to respond to this. It was posted on another forum, outside of Catholic Answers, which I came across. It is a bit troubling to me.

It is on the Holy Trinity, and its alledged origins. It appears, to me, to have been written by a practicioner of some form of neo-Gnosticism:

"Misconceptions and Misunderstandings have plagued mankind for centuries now.
First of all the trinity is Egyptian in origin. It came from the great sage and beloved prophet Enoch (Idris) a.k.a. Imhotep, otherwise known as Thrice the Great, or three times great. Count Scottula is right on in the spiritual components here. This is not a pagan thought, and there is no teaching in the idea of a trinity actually meaning three gods. It is the Father, Son, and the Mother (Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit existed as the Motherly Demiurge in all ancient manuscripts and teachings. This motherly presence within the creation, is in itself present within the Father, the all empowering and embracing Life Force a.k.a. the Light, The father lives within the Son, and the Son is the flesh, mankind itself. This is the simple part of Kabballah (eidolon (ego), pleroma, kenoma, gnosticism).

Jesus was both a Prophet and a Priest-King, there is no doubt that he knew what he was doing, because he was of the Order of Melchisedec (Melchizedek).
Hebrews 5:4-6 - “And no man takes this honor to himself, but only he who is called of God, as was Aaron. So, also Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a High-Priest, but he glorified him who said to him, Thou art my Son; today have I begotten thee. And he said also in another place, Thou art a Priest-King forever after the Order of Melchisedec.”

The same as his ancestor King David (Thutmose III)
Hebrews 7:21 - “For they were made priests without oaths; but this one was made a Priest with an oath, as it was said concerning him by David, the Lord has sworn, and will not lie, thou art a Priest forever after the Order of Melchisedec.”

Do not forget Jesus’ Royalty, His father Joseph or Osareph (High-Priest), and the Virgin Mary (Virgin Princess) gave Jesus a birthright that God had given them through their royal blood. The royalty passed through the blood of the female heir. Did the teacher of righteous give up his thrown for fullfillment of prophecy? It was in his birthright, and tradition to be titled Son of God and Priest-King. This was seen as a balance of all powers, in ancient times. "

I look forward to all of your responses. Thank you.

-Kolya


#2

What source are you citing? :slight_smile:


#3

Well, I’m pulling it from a thread on MySpace. Here it is:

forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=8582051&groupID=101222089&adTopicID=27&Mytoken=C9E073AC-F6D8-44CD-ADC096B66E52F882892034547


#4

When you read sometthing like this:

[font=Arial]It came from the great sage and beloved prophet Enoch (Idris) a.k.a. Imhotep, otherwise known as Thrice the Great, or three times great.

[/font]
you know it’s a bunch of mush.

Can the claimant document that “it” came from Egypt? Is there an existing piece of papyrus or a wall painting that says that?

Can the claimant document that “Enoch” is “Idris?” Or that he is “Imhotep?”

The answer to those questions, by the way, is "No."http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


#5

[quote=vern humphrey]When you read sometthing like this:

you know it’s a bunch of mush.

Can the claimant document that “it” came from Egypt? Is there an existing piece of papyrus or a wall painting that says that?

Can the claimant document that “Enoch” is “Idris?” Or that he is “Imhotep?”

The answer to those questions, by the way, is "No."http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
[/quote]

Thanks, Vern A lot of ideas and images are used in the church tthat were used before in history. That does not mean that the church adopted them or used them in the same way. The meanings the church gives to them is new and different, the use is usually coincidently.–nicolo


#6

Thanks for your posts.

I will ask that person the questions demanding proof of the claim.

Nico - yes that is true. But this person seems to be alledging that the Trinity which we behold is influenced from Egypt…and somehow is parallel to a weird holy family triad (as he mentions by making the Holy Spirit a Mother)


#7

[quote=nico1089]Thanks, Vern A lot of ideas and images are used in the church tthat were used before in history. That does not mean that the church adopted them or used them in the same way. The meanings the church gives to them is new and different, the use is usually coincidently.–nicolo
[/quote]

This sort of nonsense reminds me of one character who has a website that claims among other thing that Benedict VI (or whoever) was the “first Pope.”

That’s kind of like claiming that Henry the Eighth was the first King of England – you don’t have to be an expert in English history to ask, "So who was Henry the Seventh?"http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


#8

Elements of the Trinity may indeed have been present in the polytheistic beliefs of ancient Egypt. The Bible indicates that the first man, Adam, had a first-hand knowledge of God and so, presumably, of the triune nature of God. After the Fall of Adam, it is not surprising that the concept of the triune God over time degenerated, for instance, into the polytheistic beliefs of ancient Egypt.


#9

[quote=Todd Easton]Elements of the Trinity may indeed have been present in the polytheistic beliefs of ancient Egypt. The Bible indicates that the first man, Adam, had a first-hand knowledge of God and so, presumably, of the triune nature of God. After the Fall of Adam, it is not surprising that the concept of the triune God over time degenerated, for instance, into the polytheistic beliefs of ancient Egypt.
[/quote]

Building on what Todd said, all these other trinitarian formulas that these pagans believed, that predate the New Testament, and that these neo-pagans want to bring up all the time are NOT trinities. They are polytheists, believing in 3 gods. Just because there is some kind of similarity with the number 3 doesn’t mean we adapted the idea of the trinity from the Egyptians (or the Babylonians, or other ancient pagans).

The idea that Jesus’ “royal bloodline” came from Joseph “the high priest” and Mary “the princess virgin” is ridiculous and plainly contrary to scripture.

Idiots like this throughout history (but it seems to be more prevalent in modern times) want to take the plain truth we’re given and promote themselves by creating some kind of hidden agenda or missing truth. They picture themselves as sages and prophets, revealing hidden truths to the masses kept in the dark, but they’re actually just idiots.


#10

It obviously has not relation to the actual development of trinitarian doctrine.

It is nonsense.

It sounds like something that could have come from later gnostics, or even some story that may have made its way into the Islamic scriptures, but who knows?


#11

The guy’s messing with your head. Blow him off.

The Hebrew word used in Deut.6:4 for “one” is echad. It is the same word used in Genesis 2:24 where it says that a man and his wife will become “one” flesh. It’s impossible to have a unity without a plurality isn’t it?

If Jesus tells you that there is a “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” to baptize people in the name of (Matthew 28:19 & 20), who are you going to believe? Christ’s own words…or some Moslem on an internet forum who has a vested interest in making you doubt your faith.

I really don’t care what the Egyptians believed, even if they did have some form of trinity belief. That’s not where I get my beliefs. The things I do know that the Egyptian mythology consisted of doesn’t impress me very much.

I’ve heard a lot of really odd things over time and some of it is just plain hooey. This is one of them.
Pax tecum,


#12

The Trinity can’t be reasonably likened to tri-theistic pantheons at all. People who say that don’t understand even the earliest and most basic expressions of Trinitarian thought. You’ll notice in the earliest writings that the Christians absolutely opposed all polytheistic formulas, often doggedly. If they had any kind of understanding of the Trinity as being three unique individuals rather than One God, they never would have put up the fuss they did.

Stuff like this can all but be dismissed out of hand. At most you simply have to say “show me some documentation”; their argument will shrivel up quicker than anything.

Peace and God bless!


#13

Yeah, the writer is some sort of neo-Gnostic wanna-be-Seer. So of course he incorporates all this silly nonesense and attempts to fit them together. I really believe that he has no actual knowledge of Trinitarian history…because how in the world would an ancient-egyptian holy family triad (Osiris-Horus-Isis) exert its influence over the holy Church Fathers?

It would be very apparent if there was such an influence because it wouldve been over those fathers in the local egyptian area. But we see throughout all of the early Christian world, a trinitarian concept being taught at the hands of the apostolic fathers…be they from Smyrna to Damascus.

I’m going to ask this guy to substantiate the claim that the Holy Spirit “existed as the Motherly Demiurge in all ancient manuscripts and teachings.” In the mean time, what do you guys think of this particular statement?

God bless and peace,
Kolya


#14

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