Did Jesus ever mention this Mystery?
If it “is” a mystery why do some people here claim to understand it and try to explain it to a person struggling with it.
Did Jesus ever mention this Mystery?
We do not claim to understand the mystery. We understand what the Trinity is, we do not know how. How can the Father, Son and Spirit be God, and yet there isn’t three gods but one God
God is infinite. We are finite. God is beyond human thought. We are only capable of Human thought.
The Trinity is a concept that seeks to explain the unexplainable in such a way as to answer various heresies about who God is and who he is not, and about Jesus and his nature. The problem is that human words and human intellect can only go so far. In the end, we fall short. God cannot be totally understood by humans.
Now, as far as in the Bible, no, Jesus did not outline it. But that does not matter. John tells us that Jesus said and did many things that were not recorded. That does not mean that no one witnessed them. The early Church taught everything orally, using the Jewish scriptures as support. As the New Testement was written, the works were to be tools to help the oral teaching, not replace them. The fact that Jesus was known to be God to the first generation Christians shows that this was taught to them at some point. Likewise, the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Father were worshiped as God does the same thing. All the while, Christians held that there was One God.
Now, as time went by, heresies arose. Some said that Jesus was not God. OR that Jesus was an aspect of God. OR that Jesus was not really Human. And so on. To combat these heresies, the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, defined the Trinity.
If this is true then how do we know the church has its interpretation right?
It was after all passed down by humans, if it was an oral tradition, what about errors?
A “mystery” means a truth or reality that man can acknowledge but cannot fully understand. For example, the Mystery of Jesus, the Mystery of the Church, the Mystery of the Trinity, the Mystery of the Eucharist - just to name a few. Christianity is a mystery religion because it is the religion of the Word.
Jesus taught His disciples the Trinity in the way a father would explain something complex to a child and He promised the Spirit would lead them deeper into the truth of those things which He had taught them. Hence, the Catholic Church has, throughout the milleniums, been lead deeper into the truth of the Holy Trinity, come to a fuller knowledge of the Revelation which Jesus gave to man through His disciples. And it is precisely because He gave the truth to all men that we must share what is not ours but everyone’s with the whole world. If we do not share the truth with the whole world, we will be guilty of cooperating with the father of liars, for by our silence we will be aiding him in his work.
If you had found the meaning of life, would you not share it with others? Your joy would compel you to share it with others, so that they too may be joyful. So it is with us: our joy compels us to share with the world what Jesus gave to the world through us. We do not merely share the truth out of justice but do it out of mercy. Mercy is the crown of all our works, just as Mercy is the crown of all God’s works. By cooperating with Him, we imitate Him, and moreover, we are called to imitate Him, for our good and the good of the world. However, some people’s love is stiffled by pride and selfishness, and so, they do not share the truth. Yet we pray for them and hope that they change. A soul who is indifferent will not understand us or what we do, but a soul who is loving and honest will understand us.
Assuming that there is a God, do you not think that He would make sure of that?
Basically, Catholics believe Jesus when he said that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church to all Truth. Either Jesus is right, he was wrong, or he lied. Two of the three are not possible.
All the Sacraments are also a Mystery - we don’t claim to know the How, other than by the Grace of God… We know some of the “what” and attempt to expound on that…
Jesus DID say that He and the Father were One and that if you saw Him you also saw the Father. I don’t have the Biblical cites handy for those statements (I’m not any sort of cite-collector!) but I know they are there.
There is definitely Biblical evidence for this “mystery” (and we know for sure that if there weren’t the “Sola Scriptura” folks would have made an even bigger break long ago! )
The only thing we can acknowledge is that the trinity is implied in the bible through the interpretation of the church.
in the Bible it says “I and the father are one”. how do you know for certain this oneness is a physical oneness, how can you be sure it is not a oneness of purpose.
You only presume the Oneness is physical rather than allegorical. So the only thing acknowledged here is that trinity is implied through the interpretation of the church but is not spelled out explicitly in the bible. I find it very ironic that concepts such as the divinity of Jesus and trinity which are important tenents of the faith are not explicitly mentioned, rather, they are acknowledged through creative interpretation.
The follow-up question is then who has the authority to interpret the bible correctly, and how do you know for certain their interpretation is correct.
You can’t use Islamic theology when talking about Catholic theology. It just dosen’t work. I know in Islam you believe Jesus is just a man, but please at least meet us Catholics halfway when speaking to us. I always make sure to study Islam more so I can better understand Muslims, and I try to use Islamic theology - at least when I remember to, most of the time I forgot - when speaking with Muslims. Please return the kind gesture. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to learn what we Catholics believe and use Catholic theology when speaking to Catholics. If you want to be understood by a man who speaks French, you use French to communicate with him; the same goes for theology: Islamic for Muslims, Christian for Christians, etc.
In Catholic Theology, the Father and the Son are One in light of the One Nature of God. God is not physical but spiritual. Jesus is God and Man. He is the Son in the flesh, God Incarnate. Hence, He says, “I and the Father are One.” For more on the Holy Trinity, read the Catechism.
We are told that we can not understand the trinity with our finite brains as God is infinite. My question, what is the purpose behind why god revealed the trinity to us if we can not understand it. i presume you agree that God does not act without a purpose, so there has to be a reason for him to tell us something about the trinity. What is this reason according to christian theology
Knowledge of God begets love of God.
So, if we cannot understand it, it must not be true? No, that cannot be what you mean. I do not understand women, yet they exist. Do you mean why would God create somethign that we cannot understand? No, that cannot be correct because God is not created.
Why did God reveal the Trinity? So that we could better understand his nature and the nature and role of Jesus. What little we can comprehend about God gives us insight into God. That insight helps us to love God even more because we more fully understand his love for us. God calls us to be joined to him through Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Trinity, by way of the Church. We are to be Children of the Father. As Jesus said, a slave does not know what the master is doing or why, but a friend does. We are no longer slaves, we are friends and family.
Does Islam teach that God can be fully understood by man?
No mortal man truly understands the trinity. There are ways to sort of explain what the trinity is like in a philosophical sense and that is the best we can do short of heaven.
I like Frances Sheed’s philosophical construct. He says that God the Father is God. God the Son is God’s idea of Himself and that God the Holy Spirit is the Love that God has for his creation and thus there are three that are one. This makes sense to me, but not to others.
The Truth is unknowable, at least on the Earth.
Sounds heretical to me.
The Truth is unknowable, at least on the Earth.
Actually the Truth is Jesus Christ and He has revealed himself on Earth.
The word “Trinity” does not exist in the bible but is alluded to in both the old and new testaments. It is a mystery that has been partially revealed to us for our belief in total faith. Full revelation of which will be given us when we meet our creator. Until then we may speculate, but since God says it is so, then it is so.
I do not believe there has been a god that said the trinity is so, there has been no prophet to proclaim trinity. Trinity was designed by a committee.
In His yeshua,
I assume then that you have never read the bible?
I would have to from your statements.