"True Church" versus "Roman Catholic Church"


#1

Alfie provided this list of what she believes the “True Church” teaches versus what the “Roman Catholic Church” teaches:

True Church

Membership by Spirit baptism.
There is no salvation outside this church.
Members enter by God?s will upon believing His Gospel.
Members are secure in Christ, can never be excommunicated.
One authority?the infallible Word of God.
One Head and One Mediator.
Foundation is Jesus and the Apostles.
Proclaims the true Gospel.
Justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Promise of future glory with Jesus Christ

Roman Catholic Church

Membership by water baptism.
There is salvation outside this church.
Members enter by man?s will or by parents? desire.
Members are not secure, can be excommunicated and condemned to hell.
Three authorities?the Bible, Tradition and the infallible Magesterium.
Two Heads, many mediators.
Foundation is Peter.
Proclaims another gospel.
Justified by faith plus works.
Promise of a purging or punishing fire for sins

Comments?


#2

[quote=Eden]Alfie provided this list of what she believes the “True Church” teaches versus what the “Roman Catholic Church” teaches:

True Church

Membership by Spirit baptism.
There is no salvation outside this church.
Members enter by God?s will upon believing His Gospel.
Members are secure in Christ, can never be excommunicated.
One authority?the infallible Word of God.
One Head and One Mediator.
Foundation is Jesus and the Apostles.
Proclaims the true Gospel.
Justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Promise of future glory with Jesus Christ

Roman Catholic Church

Membership by water baptism.
There is salvation outside this church.
Members enter by man?s will or by parents? desire.
Members are not secure, can be excommunicated and condemned to hell.
Three authorities?the Bible, Tradition and the infallible Magesterium.
Two Heads, many mediators.
Foundation is Peter.
Proclaims another gospel.
Justified by faith plus works.
Promise of a purging or punishing fire for sins

Comments?
[/quote]

Where does she find this stuff. Still, I love it. Gives me an opportunity to poke holes in the lies again. Yahoo!

Let’s take them one at a time. I am only going to deal with the pot shots at Rome here.

Membership by water baptism.
Well, it is true that baptism in the Catholic Church uses water. But, you have conveniently overlooked what it means. It is not just about taking a bath. If you have doubts about this, come to the Easter Vigil Mass and see for yourself. Let’s also not forget about Confirmation where we afirm our belief in Christ and the Church that He established…for those of you playing along at home, that Church is seated in Rome.

There is salvation outside this church. Where? When does the Catholic Church claim that one can be saved outside of the Church? In fact, is it not a mortal sin to miss Mass? Sounds like Chuch is pretty important to me, Alfie. Back to the drawing board on that one…can’t wait to see the next version.

Members enter by man?s will or by parents? desire.
Members enter because of God’s will. This is why he told the deciples to go out and baptise everyone: men, women, children, infants. This is the ultimate expression of God’s will. And, due to confirmation, we all make a personal commitment in the belief of the teaching of Christ and his Holy Church.

Members are not secure, can be excommunicated and condemned to hell.

Actually, our members are secure. They are secure in the teaching of the One True Church. And, that Church teaches that we can be condemed to hell or excommunicated if our actions warrant it. The sad part is that your church does not teach this, which means that some of your members are in for one heck of a shock. Oh, and by the way, the reason we teach this…it is in the Bible.

Three authorities?the Bible, Tradition and the infallible Magesterium.

Try again. There is only one authority…the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible is inspired by God, the tradition is passed down from God, and the Mageterium was established by God. Any questions why we follow it?

Two Heads, many mediators.
There is only one head of the Chruch and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Pope, which is who I assume you are talking about, is his appointed teacher here on Earth. The mediators of which you speak, and I am assuming that you are talking about priests and saints here, were all discussed in the Bible. Jesus gives men the power to forgive sins, and the Bible is clear about the prayers of the Saints in front of the throne of heaven. Next.

Foundation is Peter.

Nope. Foundation is Christ. Peter was just made the first Pope…by Jesus.

Proclaims another gospel.
What? Who do you think gave you the gospel? Had it not been for the monks writing it down for years and translating it, you would have nothing to read. And, the Catholic Church has never altered what was in the Bible…the Protestants can’t make that claim.

Justified by faith plus works.
Well sure. Just like Jesus taught us. Just like James says. You are too, and you should realize it.

Promise of a purging or punishing fire for sins.

I would assume you are referring to Purgatory here. Well, it is in the Bible, and yes it was promised…next question?

So, in the spirit of truth, don’t sing it…just bring it.


Brad

There is only one Christian Church…just one…not 30,000.


#3

[quote=Eden]Alfie provided this list of what she believes the “True Church” teaches versus what the “Roman Catholic Church” teaches:

True Church

Membership by Spirit baptism.
There is no salvation outside this church.
Members enter by God?s will upon believing His Gospel.
Members are secure in Christ, can never be excommunicated.
One authority?the infallible Word of God.
One Head and One Mediator.
Foundation is Jesus and the Apostles.
Proclaims the true Gospel.
Justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Promise of future glory with Jesus Christ

[/quote]

What’s the True Church, or is that left up to the individual?


#4

[quote=mrs_abbott]What’s the True Church, or is that left up to the individual?
[/quote]

I may be speaking out of turn here, but I think that Alfie believes that the true chruch is the modern Evangelical Church, as they have condemned Catholics who Alfie believes are mistaken about a great many things. Alfie has, of course, been unable to document anything, but she does love to make blind accusations.


#5

[quote=Eden]One Head and One Mediator.
[/quote]

Christ is our sole Head and our sole Mediator, for He is the only one from whom we attain salvation.

Yes, we are purged from all attachment to sin, even if it has been forgiven, because in order to see the face of God and be in His house, He is all we must want. Sin has effects on us even after we have been forgiven. Remember when you were a child and you disobeyed your mother, maybe fought with your sisters and brothers? Well, your mother and your siblings may have forgiven you… but you may still feel bad about punching them and they still feel the effects of your sin. This is why there’s a purgatorial fire, to purify us before we enter Heaven AFTER we have been forgiven. People in Purgatory WILL be saints.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html


#6

[quote=mrs_abbott]What’s the True Church, or is that left up to the individual?
[/quote]

Alfie is Evangelical, so I would say she means Evangelicalism.


#7

#8

I’m quoting Alfie’s list from the “Evangelicals and the Church” thread. I believe the in listing the title “True Church” she is intending that to mean “Evangelical” as she is Evangelical.


#9

We should also point out that our friend Alfie has a habit of making arguements that are free from reason and fact, yet soundly based in propaganda and hate.


#10

[quote=Eden]I’m quoting Alfie’s list from the “Evangelicals and the Church” thread. I believe the in listing the title “True Church” she is intending that to mean “Evangelical” as she is Evangelical.
[/quote]

sorry, eden i thought that you were the one that had posted this. my apoligies. also, do you know what she means by evangelical.


#11

[quote=jesusfirst]sorry, eden i thought that you were the one that had posted this. my apoligies. also, do you know what she means by evangelical.
[/quote]

Good question. We are still trying to figure that out.


#12

True: Justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Roman:Justified by faith plus works.

Websters:
Justify: verb, in theology to pardon and clear from guilt; to treat as just, to pardon.

THe roman church holds that by grace alone are we justified, that nothing we can do is enough to insure salvation.

And a correction to the thought of alfie’s “true” church is that grace doesn not come though faith in christ. Grace consists of gifts from God in his mercy. Even though even faith is a grace from god, even the strongest self-generated faith in christ is not enough to be justified.


#13

[quote=sadie2723]Where does she find this stuff. Still, I love it. Gives me an opportunity to poke holes in the lies again. Yahoo!

Let’s take them one at a time. I am only going to deal with the pot shots at Rome here.

Membership by water baptism.
Well, it is true that baptism in the Catholic Church uses water. But, you have conveniently overlooked what it means. It is not just about taking a bath. If you have doubts about this, come to the Easter Vigil Mass and see for yourself. Let’s also not forget about Confirmation where we afirm our belief in Christ and the Church that He established…for those of you playing along at home, that Church is seated in Rome.

There is salvation outside this church. Where? When does the Catholic Church claim that one can be saved outside of the Church? In fact, is it not a mortal sin to miss Mass? Sounds like Chuch is pretty important to me, Alfie. Back to the drawing board on that one…can’t wait to see the next version.

Members enter by man?s will or by parents? desire.
Members enter because of God’s will. This is why he told the deciples to go out and baptise everyone: men, women, children, infants. This is the ultimate expression of God’s will. And, due to confirmation, we all make a personal commitment in the belief of the teaching of Christ and his Holy Church.

Members are not secure, can be excommunicated and condemned to hell.

Actually, our members are secure. They are secure in the teaching of the One True Church. And, that Church teaches that we can be condemed to hell or excommunicated if our actions warrant it. The sad part is that your church does not teach this, which means that some of your members are in for one heck of a shock. Oh, and by the way, the reason we teach this…it is in the Bible.

Three authorities?the Bible, Tradition and the infallible Magesterium.

Try again. There is only one authority…the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible is inspired by God, the tradition is passed down from God, and the Mageterium was established by God. Any questions why we follow it?

Two Heads, many mediators.
There is only one head of the Chruch and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Pope, which is who I assume you are talking about, is his appointed teacher here on Earth. The mediators of which you speak, and I am assuming that you are talking about priests and saints here, were all discussed in the Bible. Jesus gives men the power to forgive sins, and the Bible is clear about the prayers of the Saints in front of the throne of heaven. Next.

Foundation is Peter.

Nope. Foundation is Christ. Peter was just made the first Pope…by Jesus.

Proclaims another gospel.
What? Who do you think gave you the gospel? Had it not been for the monks writing it down for years and translating it, you would have nothing to read. And, the Catholic Church has never altered what was in the Bible…the Protestants can’t make that claim.

Justified by faith plus works.
Well sure. Just like Jesus taught us. Just like James says. You are too, and you should realize it.

Promise of a purging or punishing fire for sins.

I would assume you are referring to Purgatory here. Well, it is in the Bible, and yes it was promised…next question?

So, in the spirit of truth, don’t sing it…just bring it.


Brad

There is only one Christian Church…just one…not 30,000.
[/quote]

Nicely put, but the Church does teach that others outside of the Church can be saved, CCC and what not say so, though there are several kinda restrictions we can say to that, not being introduced into the truth and what not.


#14

[quote=BryPGuy89]Nicely put, but the Church does teach that others outside of the Church can be saved, CCC and what not say so, though there are several kinda restrictions we can say to that, not being introduced into the truth and what not.
[/quote]

I concede that point. As I mentioned on the other thread, I was under the impression that Alfie was indicating that Catholics do not believe church attendance is of any real value. This was based on some of her earlier posts. Sorry for the confusion.


#15

True Church

Membership by Spirit baptism.

There is no salvation outside this church.
There is no salvation outside this church for one who knows Jesus. This point really should make you aware. Jesus started this church for One People, One Chruch. Not 500 different Demoninations that can’t agree on the teaching of Christ.
Simply Put. Coke (The real thing) will always be better the Pepsi.
Members enter by God?s will upon believing His Gospel.
Then they must be baptised by water and grow in thier faith. there is no “microwave” Jesus.
Members are secure in Christ, can never be excommunicated.
Excommunication is not a charge taken lightly. For Example. Satan is secure in his belief in Christ. But is he secure? NO. So can Satan or his servents stay in your church? Excommunication isn’t so bad when it is applicable.
One authority?the infallible Word of God
Um. No difference here.
One Head and One Mediator.
No difference here.

Foundation is Jesus and the Apostles.
Then why did you break off from his church?
Proclaims the true Gospel.
Explain why there are so many reformations. Which one is right?
That is what happens when you question God’s word. Confusion. and I know. I used to do it all the time but was able to come back to my Church and confess and rejoin.

If you really want to know come in and check it out before you assume. God bless you and take care,
Jon


#16

Given that the two lists seem to be presented as contradictory, or at least oppositional, I thought that it might be interesting to consider the differences:

Membership by Spirit baptism / water baptism
As humans are not equipped with a sensory apparatus capable of detecting “Spirit baptism”, who is to say that it does or does not occur simultaneously with water baptism? I do not think that we are able to discriminate between these. I am not, anyway.

There is / is not salvation outside this church.
If we are talking about the True Church, with the definite article applied, does that not mean the entire collection of all who are saved? In that case, there is no salvation outside, because salvation equates with immediate entry. It seems statistically unlikely that all of the members of the True Church would be members of only one human organisation. Nevertheless, this would in no way invalidate the role of that organisation as an integral part of the True Church (not all citizens of the United Kingdom are citizens of England, but all citizens of England are citizens of the United Kingdom).

Members enter by God’s will upon believing His Gospel / by man’s will or by parents’ desire.
See “justification”, below.

Members can never be excommunicated / can be excommunicated and condemned to hell.
Jesus described God alone as being able to condemn to Hell. How could one mortal forcibly separate another from God? This also goes back to the idea of ‘salvation outside’, above: if the church can excommunicate members from itself, this is entirely coherent with an understanding that it is not the entire True Church. Thus, the church excommunicates a mortal from the community of believers, but does not erect a barrier between that mortal and God.

Of course, I would also suggest that we are well able to separate ourselves…

One authority: the infallible Word of God / Three authorities: the Bible, Tradition and the infallible Magesterium.
One authority: the Lord God Almighty. References to and/or indicators of the desires of that authority: potentially infinite, when one is dealing with a God who can do anything.

One Head and One Mediator / Two Heads, many mediators.
I am not sure what, or who, the "Two Heads"are supposed to be, but I would have to go back to the One authority/One head, i.e., God. Regarding mediators, I would guess that the number ought to potentially include every conscious being, inasmuch as any of us could intercede with God on behalf of any other, via prayer. As for whether believers who have died are included in this, I might posit that it depends only upon whether or not they are conscious, and more than a few stories in the Bible suggest that the authors of those texts believed that they remained so, post mortem.

Foundation is Jesus and the Apostles / Peter alone.
If it is the True Church, then it would not, I think, be the Church of Peter: Peter is not God. The foundation would be God, I presume, and the basis of its doctrines would descend in part from the words of Jesus, in part from the teachings of many philosophers and theologians over the years (including the original Apostles), and in part from the brains that God gave to mortals, apparently with the intention that those mortals should use those brains. (I shall start any day now.)

Proclaims the true Gospel / another.
This goes back to “is the True Church”: the True Church proclaims the True Gospel. If it does not proclaim the True Gospel, then it is not the True Church. However, a mere mortal, being imperfect, might well be unable to establish what exactly is the True Gospel, rendering this useless as a tool of discrimination.

Justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ / by faith plus works.
Neither of these seems right. Mortals sin, and are, consequently, unjust. I doubt very much that they can render themselves righteous, being flawed by their imperfection. As such, I might opt for "Justified by the sovereign choice of a loving God, not on any basis that a human might be able to engineer or demand as his/her due."

Promise of future glory with Jesus Christ / of a purging or punishing fire for sins.
These probably represent separate categories to be applied to separate individuals, and, as such, do not conflict.

In summary, I think that many points in the list may be valid, all are interesting, and none demonstrates the incorrectness of any given body of Christians.


#17

Hey all. I am just starting up on this thread…but I love the title. Let’s be real here for a second: There is only one true Christian Church, and that is the RCC, so what is the debate about?


#18

I would only edit that to say (which would mean I also need to edit my name - a little slip in thinking) that the One True Christian Church is the Catholic Church. Lets not forget our Eastern Rites Catholics!!


#19

I would edit further. While one could argue forever about the many worship methodologys, whenever 2 or more gather in Jesus’ name, we have a true Christian church, no matter the denomination. While I believe the Catholic Church is the most correct, I certainly don’t discount the sincereness and validity of other Christian denominations.

While I fully expect to be flamed by this forum’s more devout posters, thats the way I feel, and IMO how God feels.


#20
  1. The Church is Hierarchical.
  2. The Church is always visible.

Only the Catholic Church fits the description :slight_smile: And well I wouldnt use RCC since we still have Eastern Brethren.


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