Truth

That’s an interesting question, but what does it have to do with a working definition of “truth”?

“A little boy was sitting on my knee the other day while I was reading a new book of philosophy. He could just read the capital letters, and he read across the top of a chapter “What is truth?” And the moment he saw this grey and ironical riddle of old Pontius Pilate, he called out in a sudden shrill and exultant voice, “Oh, that is an easy question. I know what truth is. It’s saying things right.” And so indeed it is; that is the best answer to the question, except the colossal silence of Christ. But the point here is, that the whole strength of the child lay not in the fact that he solved the difficulty, but that he did not admit that there was any difficulty.”

G. K. Chesterton

=anthonymarie;11773707]

ITS CURIOUS THAT NO NON-CATHOLIC cHRISTIAN HAS RESPONDED:o

God Bless,
Patrick

Yes.

There are truths about the physical world. We are discovering more of those truths all the time.

And there is a truth about how we are to treat one another which is the second greatest Commandment. We cannot achieve the second without also working on the first - Complete love of God.

The physical world is here to support us and reward us while we are here. But, by far, our greatest purpose is proper love of God, self, and others for the love of God. So the two Commandments make them the greatest Truth known to man.

As Christ said, on these two Commandments all the rest of the law is based (should be [we mess it up sometimes - see marijuana in Colorado and Washington]]).

Well said Josh and Biggie.

=GratefulFred;11774851]Yes.

There are truths about the physical world. We are discovering more of those truths all the time.

And there is a truth about how we are to treat one another which is the second greatest Commandment. We cannot achieve the second without also working on the first - Complete love of God.

The physical world is here to support us and reward us while we are here. But, by far, our greatest purpose is proper love of God, self, and others for the love of God. So the two Commandments make them the greatest Truth known to man.

As Christ said, on these two Commandments all the rest of the law is based (should be [we mess it up sometimes - see marijuana in Colorado and Washington]]).

Very nicely done, Thanks!:thumbsup:

Patrick

GratefulFred;

As Christ said, on these two Commandments all the rest of the law is based

Here is a simplistic yet profound way to test the power of the greatest commandments, If you choose to read further then search for something greater than I have written.

Did God have a complete plan for the creation of everything, did he think ahead? Were Christ’s life, death and resurrection planned before the creation of the universe began?
To search for a deeper meaning, was Christ freely given the choice to accept his sacrifice before the creation of the universe began?
What purpose can be so great, that it would compel God to create the universe and life, knowing in advance the suffering of mankind and that his son would die?
Would it be to forgive the sins of mankind, or can there be something greater?

Challenge your mind to find a greatest good purpose for creation; by searching for answers to three questions.

What greatest thing can God create?
God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he then becomes God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now becomes God the gardener’ God could create life with more intelligence but if the knowledge is limited he has now created the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer. God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. Can God create anything greater than children in his own image, does he now become God the Father, and we pray to God our Father. Does the greatest thing that God creates, depend on the relationship that he can have with them?

What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?
Could love be the greatest reason for God to create children?
Could the ultimate God be a God who loves in the greatest way?

God the Father willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF.

Can there be any greater reason to create children, even for God; can God love us more than he loves himself? In a way, God loves us more than he loves himself, because he sent his Son to die for us. In a contradicting way, God loves himself more than us, because he is the greatest being in the universe and retains the power of heaven or hell over us. We can never have the wisdom to understand the fullness of God’s love during our lifetime, but to dare to think that God loves each and every one of us as he loves himself is indeed a profound thought. When you ask the question; why did Christ say they are the greatest commandment, can it possibly be because they are greatest for God also?

To find a greatest purpose for all God’s children.
What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and subdue the universe or is there more?

If the greatest reason God could have to create mankind, is to love us, as he loves himself, then God could create mankind, with the freedom to return God’s love

All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally, are we given the greatest commandment as a guide for this very purpose?

God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; do we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.

All of mankind, to be created with the freedom to love their neighbour; as they love themselves unconditionally; are we given the second greatest commandment as a guide?
Is this how God wants his children to be one? He wants us to love each other as we love ourselves.

Could the greatest commandments be a Greatest and Ultimate Truth?

John 15 – As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you.

If our greatest purpose for creation is to live by the greatest commandments, then this freedom to love also gives us the choice to do both good and evil. Are the greatest commandments powerful enough, to compel God to create the universe and life, knowing in advance the costs involved?

We can marvel at the great attention to detail that is evident in everything from the microscopic cells of life and right up to the giant structures of galaxies. Can you find any greater purpose for all this to exist? Challenge the above statements in your mind in an honest way, test them against any religious beliefs, and test them against any form of logic.

This is only a collection of words to challenge the mind to think, I do not pretend to understand the meaning, or to make any claims of truth from these words.

I suppose it would depend on what field of knowledge you were talking about - mathematical truth, honesty, religious truth, philosophical truth, scientific truth, historical truth.

It seems to boil down to being “correct”, or 'right".

I have a bit of a sideline on this - my old Protestant pastor had some misgivings towards the end of his life about the Protestant situation. After he died he appeared in a brief vision one night, and simply said “The Catholic Church is closest to the truth”.

I would assume by that it is closest in its teachings to interpreting correctly what Christ meant when He spoke about the Church, sacraments, the Pope (via Peter) and his role, heaven, hell and purgatory, reconciliation etc.

Note though the word was “closest”, which implies that there might be a couple of areas where it’s not quite in line with Christ’s will.

I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that I think the contraceptive pill was God’s idea, given at the very time that population pressures were becoming a real problem in some parts of the world. So I think the Church erred in that direction.

But anyway that’s been my personal experience for what it matters. And the old pastor was a wise old bird. He didn’t make many mistakes, and he was quite prophetic. I found that if he said something, it usually happened.

Finally Christ claimed to be the way, the truth and the life. If that’s the case, other religions and belief systems are in error in some way or another. We can’t all be right, and have the final truth.

Hi Eric,

Excellent questions for readers to ponder, but too many to answer in normal sized response. So, from me, only some comments.

I am not a theologian, but only a follower with incomplete knowledge, but enough to TRUST God.

Without providing sources which should be well known to many:

  1. God’s Ways are far above man’s ways. I am not qualified to speculate on God’s Purposes and His Plans before time began. I don’t answer FOR God, I answer TO God. I try to explain, as best I can, what God means to me.

  2. God has chosen to reveal Himself to us. As His ways are far above our ways, it seems His revelation to us is partial compared to what He knows; we have enough to know Him well enough to follow Him if we choose.

  3. Jesus explained that it is better if we become like little children who, it seems to me, are masters at love and trust. Sure, we are educated adults (to varying degrees) and so we seek a deeper understanding, but the understanding you would have us develop seems far beyond where most of us should go. That area belongs, I think, to the Mystics and well trained theologians. I am good with reading what books and documents come my way with no intent to publish my own exhaustive, yet still incomplete, understanding.

  4. Earlier I wrote some thoughts about the Two Greatest Commandments about Love - doing the 2nd while working on the 1st. IMHO, the 1st Commandment to Love God means:

– Acknowledge that God does exist and that Jesus Christ is His Living Son.

– Acknowledge that we have an immortal soul and we will live eternity in either Heaven or Hell.

– Acknowledge that we are sinners who need God’s forgiveness and we need to make amends for our sins so we can become perfect and be with God in Heaven.

– Acknowledge that we cannot obtain God’s forgiveness nor make sufficient amends without doing the best we can to follow Jesus Christ… Could God do it another way? Perhaps, He is God, but He set it up this way.

– Acknowledge that Christ told (commanded) us to follow Him through His Church (Matthew 16: 13-19)

– Acknowledge that we are to seek His Forgiveness through Reconciliation (John 20: 19-23) This is huge and for which I am most grateful.

– Acknowledge that we can receive Him regularly in Holy Eucharist (Luke 22: 19-20)

– And acknowledge that the Holy Spirit guides Christ’s Church (John 14: 25-26.

In this way, we acknowledge THE TRUTH that comes from God. And with this truth we are able to follow the 2nd greatest Commandment to properly love others for the love of God. More than doing all this is more than most of us can handle.

=Bob Crowley;11783928]I suppose it would depend on what field of knowledge you were talking about - mathematical truth, honesty, religious truth, philosophical truth, scientific truth, historical truth.

It seems to boil down to being “correct”, or 'right".

I have a bit of a sideline on this - my old Protestant pastor had some misgivings towards the end of his life about the Protestant situation. After he died he appeared in a brief vision one night, and simply said “The Catholic Church is closest to the truth”.

I would assume by that it is closest in its teachings to interpreting correctly what Christ meant when He spoke about the Church, sacraments, the Pope (via Peter) and his role, heaven, hell and purgatory, reconciliation etc.

Note though the word was “closest”, which implies that there might be a couple of areas where it’s not quite in line with Christ’s will.

I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that I think the contraceptive pill was God’s idea, given at the very time that population pressures were becoming a real problem in some parts of the world. So I think the Church erred in that direction.

But anyway that’s been my personal experience for what it matters. And the old pastor was a wise old bird. He didn’t make many mistakes, and he was quite prophetic. I found that if he said something, it usually happened.

Finally Christ claimed to be the way, the truth and the life. If that’s the case, other religions and belief systems are in error in some way or another. We can’t all be right, and have the final truth.

As the OP I’ll assume the right; rising changing the topic and respond to your error.RE; “the pill”

Psalm 50:12 “Create a clean heart in me, O God: and renew a right spirit within me.”

“It is I [God] who bring both death and life” (Dt 32:39):

A simple demonstration that God IS in charge of ALL life and death decisions

Do all acts of “unprotected” sexual intercourse result in a pregnancy? NO! of course not.
WHY: Because God has designed a METHOD of time fertility; thus making the pill nothing more than a human convenience.

Because your new to God’s One True Faith your carrying some Protestant luggage with you.

It is a Moral IMPOSSIBILITY [emphasis not shouting] for the Church to be in error when TEACHING on Faith matters that MUST be believed and MORAL matters. READ
Mt. 16:15-19 and John 17:14-20 very carefully.

God God guide you my friend along HIS path to heaven

GratefulFred;

  1. God’s Ways are far above man’s ways. I am not qualified to speculate on God’s Purposes and His Plans before time began. I don’t answer FOR God, I answer TO God. I try to explain, as best I can, what God means to me.

Thanks for taking the time to read through my post, and the most I can claim is, it is just a collection of words to challenge the mind to think. It took about three years of sleepless nights, to write those few words, always searching; challenging, and looking for some greater truth.

If you could find anything greater than the greatest commandments, it will destroy Christianity. They have to be a greatest truth

=josh987654321;11773182]Jesus Christ who said “I am the truth” not simply “I am speaking the truth” but “I am the truth, the way and the life”, God is the source of all truth and without God there can be no truth.

This I believe is one of the most powerful arguments for theism, because without God, the words true or false simply become meaningless, so the question I ask the atheist is if there is no God, why do you believe it to be true?

C.S. Lewis explains it well I believe.

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” - C.S. Lewis

The theory that thought is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense; for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction but of which it would be meaningless to use the words ‘true’ or ‘false’. C.S. Lewis

If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts - i.e., Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset. - C.S. Lewis

John Lennox also explains it well I believe

*I believe in God because I believe there is evidence for God, for example, in the very fact that we can do science, we believe that the universe is rationally intelligable. Why does a scientist believe it is rationally intelligable? Atheism tells us that the human mind is the human brain and it’s the end product of a mindless unguided process, why should I believe anything it tells me if thats the case? Whereas theism tells me that there is intelligence behind the universe and behind the human mind which fits perfectly with science. So part of the evidence for God would be the fact that we can do science.

Infact the rise of science in the 16th and 17th century came about because people expected law in nature, because they believed in the Law giver (God). So science and faith in God fit perfectly together.* - John Lennox

It’s not science and theism that are in conflict as most atheists like to claim, it’s actually science and atheism that are in conflict, because atheism cannot even trust the cognitive faculties we use to do science, as C.S. Lewis say’s atheism and science is like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.

By denying God, the honest skeptic becomes skeptical of his skepticism.

Thank you for reading
Josh

Thanks Josh!

I liked it so much that I reblogged it:thumbsup:

Thank you :slight_smile:

The truth argument actually came from Charles Darwin himself, I think it’s known as ‘Darwins Doubt.’ (Interestingly those who espouse Darwins theory for thier atheistic/materialistic views seem to neglect/ignore this doubt, otherwise they wouldn’t believe their convictions to be true).

"But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?” - Charles Darwin

I believe this doubt arises when people deny an intelligent creator behind the universe and subsequently us. As John Lennox say’s “theism tells me that there is intelligence behind the universe and behind the human mind.” Only if there is intelligence behind the universe and behind the human mind can the words ‘true’ or ‘false’ be made sense of.

So the next time an atheist tries to tell you he is right in his convictions, or that they are true, u’ll know that he is violating those very convictions. Thus why C.S. Lewis say’s “But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”

The atheist can appeal to nothing absolute, nothing objectively true for all people, it is just mere opinion enforced by might. The Christian appeals to a standard outside himself/herself in which truth and qualitative values can be made sense of. - Peter Huff

Thank you for reading
Josh

I have always liked Lewis’ quote. Short, concise and very hard to dispute.

Good point! How are these “truths” different? Or more generally, to what is the human mind “being conformed to” in each case? This is the basis for a nice discussion in and of itself - involving philosophically significant distinctions.

But even beyond that discussion, there is a more fundamental question. Would there be “truth” if there were no human beings? If “truth” means conformity of mind and reality, then, without mind, it would seem there would no “truth”.

Please note I am prescinding from any theological issues (e.g., God’s mind).

As you say, except for the mind of God being reflected in the world, there would be no “truth” for humans, there being no humans.

C.S. Lewis says: “But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”

Lewis is wrong: one can believe in thought while disbelieving in God. Atheism does not describe thought as a spiritual entity. Nor does it describe God as anything more than an imaginary spiritual entity. Where atheism goes wrong is that it cannot prove thought is a material entity any more than it can prove that God is an imaginary being.

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