Trying to destroy the Church from within!


**If someone deliberately went through the seminary to become a Priest
just to try to destroy it from within, would their Masses be valid?

They would’ve had to lie and deceive their whole way through the seminary,
however, they did have the intent and desire to become a Priest but,
for unholy reasons and only God would know what their true intention was.

If the Bishop ordains him unknowingly, is the ordination valid?
And what about everyone who went to this Priest for
confession, Eucharist, weddings or any of the sacraments?
My guess would be that as long as our intentions were good
then we were forgiven our sins, but what about the other sacraments?

What if he became a Bishop?
Would any of the Priests he ordained really be Priests?

Please try and clear this up for me.
Unfortunately, this does go on and has happened.
Satan and the enemies of Christ, would love nothing more.

This would explain some of the bad Priests and Scandals we’ve had
& the Demolition going on inside our Churches.**


Has this ever really happened? Seminaries and Religious Orders have very rigorous selection procedures and novitiates in order to weed out those who are entering the priesthood for the wrong reasons.

Any priest who had this approach would be unlikely to succeed, as he would have to obey his bishop, otherwise there would be consequences. He would need to be a Catholic for at least 3 years before entering novitiate, and show a genuine enthusiasm for serving the Church. It would be far from certain that any priest would ever become a bishop, and I think the selection process for the episcopal office would be even more rigorous in its’ selection than that for priests. Even as a bishop, he wouldn’t really be able to bring the Church down from the inside. He couldn’t teach heresy, because Rome would stop him, he couldn’t destroy the finances of the Church, because his own diocesan board of trustees and diaconate would stop him. He could create scandal, certainly, but the Church has survived scandal before. It would be an extremely hard (and pointless) path to follow, and I honestly don’t believe that anybody can be a priest in their own strength, without the grace of God.

You have to distinguish between those priests who may be in error, or may, due to their own pride, bring false opinions into the Church with good intentions, and those who are genuinely out to deliberately destroy the Church. I really don’t believe there are many (any?) priests in the latter camp.

Also, is it really possible to fool the Holy Spirit, who protects the hierarchy of the Church? If there are such priests and bishops, they are there because God has some kind of purpose for them. I don’t believe that anybody could live as a candidate for seminary, a novice, seminarian, then as an obedient priest for many years without the Lord beginning to have an influence on their lives. By the time they became a bishop, maybe their whole motivation would have changed. :slight_smile:

Just as we can receive the sacraments in bad faith, but they are still sacraments, so they remain sacraments if they are offered in bad faith. A priest can still say a valid mass even if he is in a state of mortal sin.

If I were you, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it.


I agree with the DL82. But if this ever happened read about St. Ambrose and St Augustine. There was a large heresy (Arian I think) that had been going on but it had been finally settled. The people were, however, worried that the sacraments performed by these schismatic priests who had now rejoined the Church had been valid. The bishops descided from this experiance that the Sacraments were valid because a Sacrament’s validity was not based upon the priest’s personal holiness or devotion but by the Holy Spirit. From this whole discussion (please correct me if I am wrong) the Catholic Church alllowed baptisms that had been made by schismatics. Since you can only be baptized once people were generally worried about the state of their soul and if they needed to be rebaptized.

Bottom line, the Holy Spirit makes the Sacrament through the priest.

Pax Cristi


Remember that individual priests and Bishops, even when they rise to such lofty heights as Cardinal, are small cogs in a very big wheel, and certainly not themselves really capable of destroying the Church no matter how much they may want to.

Besides which seminary training is lengthy and gruelling - I think several years of study on top of the normal degree. I don’t think most rabble rousers would either think it worth it or be able to repress their dislike of the Church and their true intentions for that long.


Sounds like-- a man as you describe—would be invalid matter.


This begs another question. Can Holy Orders be annulled in the same way that a marriage can be if the candidate enters into them with reservations or without full understanding?


**AA-1025 The Memoirs of Anti-Apostle

Hasn’t anybody ever read this book?
Almost everything he had planed to destroy the Church has happened, so far!
Except Vatican III, hasn’t happened yet!…words/aa+1025/**

**Memoirs of a Communist injured in an auto accident in France; he died in the hospital a few hours later. The nurse who attended him kept his journals, read them and published them as AA-1025.

He had become a Catholic priest to subvert the Church from within.
Describes his methods & plans. Says there were many more like him.**


No. Holy Orders, like confirmation and baptism, place an indelible mark on the soul of the man. His sacraments are true for all the time he spends on Earth, if done correctly.

Weather or not they’re licit or not is a different story. It would be perfectly possible for a de-frocked priest to consecrate wine and get drunk and debaucherise on the Blood of Our Lord. Such a thought is absolutely vile and disgusting, not to mention sacreligious, but it is still possible.


**AA-1025 The Memoirs of Anti-Apostle

Hasn’t anybody ever read this book?
Almost everything he had planned to destory the church from within has happened!
Except for Vatican III, it hasn’t happened yet.…words/aa+1025/**

**Memoirs of a Communist injured in an auto accident in France; he died in the hospital a few hours later. The nurse who attended him kept his journals, read them and published them as AA-1025.

He had become a Catholic priest to subvert the Church from within.
Describes his methods & plans. Says there were many more like him. **


Wasn’t the ordination of a priest down in Texas declared invalid a year or two ago? I seem to remember a thread on that at one point…

It is at least theoretically possible for an ordination to be found lacking in some essential way, and thus invalid.

That would then imply that all sacraments offered by the priest were also invalid.

It would be a very troubling question to deal with.

I would certainly hope that the mercy and love of our Lord would provide for the needs of the faithful in such a situation.


I’ve been holding back for some time, but I have to say that we have just too much information, don’t we?

How did we ever get HERE from Pentecost?

There were so many dissidents and heresies at the beginning, and there are so many now.

It seems that “being” a priest means absolutely nothing. I want a signed, explicit oath of allegiance on file, which states the undersigned believes in such and such and pledges allegiance to the local Bishop and the Catholic Church, and likewise for the Bishop.

Just showing up doesn’t impress me any more.


Actually, if you use the search feature, you will find a thread where priests can actually go before a tribunal and the tribunal will decide if their orders are valid or null.


The question was settled in the first centuries of the Church as to whether someone however unworthy if ordained would be a priest, and the teaching has come down since then that he is.
There are stories of the communists putting their agents into seminaries in Eastern Europe to be priests. Even in this case the person would validly be a priest.


brings to mind a story. early in the chuch there was a man who conspired with the eastern queen to spread a pitciqular hearsy the queen told him she would make him pope so he could make the hearsy valid. She then had the current pope poisoned. however before our friend could get back they elected a new pope. the second pope also died under dubios cercumstances. imprisonment or something. this time our friend gets elected pope. the queen sits back and waits for her papal edict but gets none. send a letter to rome wanting to know why he is not pulling his weight in there agreement. he sends on back telling her he cannot teach hearsy. The queen imprisons this pope and torchured him for 10 years. As pope he refused to teach the hearsy he did teach as a cardinal and said he would teach as the pope.


the gates of hell will never prevail against it.


I’m not entirely sure about that, though I’ll have to try and find the information later, I seem to remember reading in Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma that for a sacrament to be valid, both the priest and the recipient have to intend to do what the Church does (i.e., intend to actually confect Christ’s body and blood in the Eucharist, intend to actually receive baptism or holy orders, in the case of someone who’s reached the age of reason).


Why are you thinking of such terrible things? Pray that people become priests to help the faith not destroy it.


If a man who hates and wants to destory the Catholic Church is ordained in a schismatical Church (which has happened a lot through the centuries) his ordination is still valid–likewise if he is ordained by a Catholic bishop. This is because the sins of the priest, especially if they are hidden, will not impede grace from the people.


Also the Sacraments work ex opere operato


Can you cite a true story of when/where it happened?

If, as one Poster said, the selection process @ seminarias is so strict, how do we get so many “liberal priests” who go around saying homosexuality is OK, women should be priests, etc… ?
I have read about liberal seminaries… One is even called The Pink Palace (Boston… of course…). There is a book (A Few Good MEn??) that tells about how orthodox men are rejected by unorthodox seminaries…
Anyway, i have to go but we need to pray… !!! :gopray2: :highprayer:

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