Trying to speak the truth


#1

Last week, I posted about how I was at a church group and I was trying to make the point that the Catholic church has the true teachings and I got the hot seat because everyone else seemed to be implying I was not being fair to protestants.

Well, I brought my CCC with me just in case the discussion got going again, fully intending not to use it unless someone else brought up the topic. The facilitator started by saying that she wanted to say that last week she should not have let the conversation go off tangent because we are not here to make anyone feel bad. She then asked if anyone had anything they wanted to say and no one including me spoke up. So we went on as if nothing happened.

After it was over I asked to speak to her alone and I read a part from the CCC that stated other Christians are in imperfect communion with the church and that was the point I was trying to make. I was not wanting to make anyone feel bad.

Well, we talked about it and it ended on friendly terms, but I know I will not change her opinion.

But what kills me, and I said this to her, is I can not believe that while I am standing in a Catholic church, I can not comfortably state the teachings of the church without getting the hot seat.

She said ‘we are not to make people feel bad’, to which I replied, ‘Come judgement day, I will need to face God and if people have the wrong idea about the church teachings, I don’t want Him to accuse me of not speaking up. And if I don’t have the words to say it politely, I have no problem answer for being rude, that is the lesser sin’

Then I pointed out that as few weeks ago, we watch a video where a woman regretted having two abortions. She did not know at the time it was a sin because everyone was encouraging her and she suffered deeply until she came to the Catholic church repented and confessed. So I feel that had this woman known the truth, she never would have had the abortions which is why we need to speak up. This lady said to me ‘That is different, all denominations think abortion is a sin so it is OK to speak up against it. But since some denominations do not think contraceptives are a sin, we can not speak up against it because it will make people feel bad’:eek:

She was so adamant that people’s feelings come first. She even said to me ‘What would Jesus day do’. I forget what I replied but next time she says to me ‘what would Jesus do’, I am going to reply ‘He would say ‘go and sin no more’’

I am just so heart broken that I can not speak church teachings in a Catholic church just because some protestant might want to join our group

Angie


#2

[quote="Anglewannabe, post:1, topic:334968"]
Last week, I posted about how I was at a church group and I was trying to make the point that the Catholic church has the true teachings and I got the hot seat because everyone else seemed to be implying I was not being fair to protestants.

Well, I brought my CCC with me just in case the discussion got going again, fully intending not to use it unless someone else brought up the topic. The facilitator started by saying that she wanted to say that last week she should not have let the conversation go off tangent because we are not here to make anyone feel bad. She then asked if anyone had anything they wanted to say and no one including me spoke up. So we went on as if nothing happened.

After it was over I asked to speak to her alone and I read a part from the CCC that stated other Christians are in imperfect communion with the church and that was the point I was trying to make. I was not wanting to make anyone feel bad.

Well, we talked about it and it ended on friendly terms, but I know I will not change her opinion.

But what kills me, and I said this to her, is I can not believe that while I am standing in a Catholic church, I can not comfortably state the teachings of the church without getting the hot seat.

She said 'we are not to make people feel bad', to which I replied, 'Come judgement day, I will need to face God and if people have the wrong idea about the church teachings, I don't want Him to accuse me of not speaking up. And if I don't have the words to say it politely, I have no problem answer for being rude, that is the lesser sin'

Then I pointed out that as few weeks ago, we watch a video where a woman regretted having two abortions. She did not know at the time it was a sin because everyone was encouraging her and she suffered deeply until she came to the Catholic church repented and confessed. So I feel that had this woman known the truth, she never would have had the abortions which is why we need to speak up. This lady said to me 'That is different, all denominations think abortion is a sin so it is OK to speak up against it. But since some denominations do not think contraceptives are a sin, we can not speak up against it because it will make people feel bad':eek:

She was so adamant that people's feelings come first. She even said to me 'What would Jesus day do'. I forget what I replied but next time she says to me 'what would Jesus do', I am going to reply 'He would say 'go and sin no more''

I am just so heart broken that I can not speak church teachings in a Catholic church just because some protestant might want to join our group

Angie

[/quote]

Well done. Brave and passionate.

Consider this,however. Consider practicing the "apostolate of friendship". This is very different than speaking directly on some topic OR in speaking in large groups.

Write down a list of everyone you see at least once a month. Who could you befriend just a bit more? Who needs perhaps a tiny bit of help in coming closer to Christ. Just look for little movements....who is falling away from love of the Mass? Who might not have been to Confession in years? Who can you quietly and naturally befriend a bit more...and perhaps get into a position to help them in small ways?

Maybe stay away from huge topics and big audiences?

It's, instead the apostolate of friendship and confidence.


#3

Wow...bless you for standing up for the Truth. You are spot-on here. You did exactly the right thing by pulling the leader aside afterwards and addressing this like you did. Don't let her suppress you from expressing Truth, btw. Unless she has been appointed to some position of authority in regards to this group, you keep proclaiming the Truth in gentleness and love. If she was appointed to her position by the Priest, he needs to be made aware of her stance.


#4

I'm a little unclear. Is this a Catholic group, but some protestants come along too? If so, are they there to learn about the Catholic faith, or is it intended to be a general/ecumenical Christian group? Or is everyone Catholic, but they didn't like the attitude that Catholics have the whole truth while others don't?

While quoting the catechism may help resolve disagreements in this forum (but often doesn't regardless), it is less likely to help "win" arguments in the real world. I commend you on wishing to make the truth known, but you should also consider that the moderator of the group needs to manage discussions and avoid rudeness. Despite you thinking that rudeness may be justified in deference to truth, I think that if you deliver the truth wrapped up in rudeness, you may do more harm than good. It's a hard balancing act, but you should respect what the moderator is trying to do in keeping conversations friendly.


#5

I don't mind Catholics sharing or defending their faith with me, but I don't want to be attacked because I'm not a Catholic. I'm sure Catholics feel the same way when Protestants defend/share their faith. Besides, don't we serve the same God?


#6

Yes, we do serve the same God, I mean, there is only one. And to stand up and tell the truth, and defending it, is our duty.


#7

[quote="Remember_Me, post:5, topic:334968"]
I don't mind Catholics sharing or defending their faith with me, but I don't want to be attacked because I'm not a Catholic. I'm sure Catholics feel the same way when Protestants defend/share their faith. Besides, don't we serve the same God?

[/quote]

I see you point, however, if a protestant walks into a Catholic church on his own free will, he can not expect Catholics to twist our teachings. Also, never in my wildest dreams would I expect protestants to edit what they say in their church just because I decided to show up.

Angie


#8

[quote="underacloud, post:4, topic:334968"]
I'm a little unclear. Is this a Catholic group, but some protestants come along too? .

[/quote]

It is a group to learn about God's love hosted by a Catholic church. The focus is not to learn directly about the teachings.

[quote="underacloud, post:4, topic:334968"]
is it intended to be a general/ecumenical Christian group? .

[/quote]

I honestly am not sure about that

[quote="underacloud, post:4, topic:334968"]
While quoting the catechism may help resolve disagreements in this forum (but often doesn't regardless), it is less likely to help "win" arguments in the real world. .

[/quote]

Agreed, I would not do that in most secular places but I was standing in a Catholic church

[quote="underacloud, post:4, topic:334968"]
I commend you on wishing to make the truth known, but you should also consider that the moderator of the group needs to manage discussions and avoid rudeness. .

[/quote]

Yes, I agree. However, we were talking about how abortion is a sin and some woman started to tell a story about a couple who had artificial insemination and I said 'That is a sin also', and that is when I started to get the hot seat and how the whole thing got started. Why is it OK to say 'Abortion is a sin' but it is not OK to say 'Artificial insemination is a sin' in the same tone of voice?????

[quote="underacloud, post:4, topic:334968"]

Despite you thinking that rudeness may be justified in deference to truth, I think that if you deliver the truth wrapped up in rudeness, you may do more harm than good. It's a hard balancing act, but you should respect what the moderator is trying to do in keeping conversations friendly.

[/quote]

Yes, I agree I need to be polite. I am actually thinking of emailing the priest and ask him what is appropriate. If he says 'the facilitator makes the rules' I will respect it

Angie


#9

[quote="Anglewannabe, post:7, topic:334968"]
I see you point, however, if a protestant walks into a Catholic church on his own free will, he can not expect Catholics to twist our teachings. Also, never in my wildest dreams would I expect protestants to edit what they say in their church just because I decided to show up.

Angie

[/quote]

I was not referring to a Protestant attending a Catholic church, or vice versa.


#10

[quote="Anglewannabe, post:8, topic:334968"]
Yes, I agree. However, we were talking about how abortion is a sin and some woman started to tell a story about a couple who had artificial insemination and I said 'That is a sin also', and that is when I started to get the hot seat and how the whole thing got started. Why is it OK to say 'Abortion is a sin' but it is not OK to say 'Artificial insemination is a sin' in the same tone of voice?????

[/quote]

Angie,

It sounds like your comments were lagrely appropriate in the context of the conversation, but perhaps that level of catechesis is beyond some of the people in the group at present.

As for artificial insemination, yes it is considered wrong, but not nearly as sinful as abortion, unless of course abortion is directly involved in the process (ie multiple emryos fertilised but selectively chosen). I would use a different tone of voice in discussing the sinfulness of each, since abortion is directly, inherently wrong, whereas many people who attempy IVF may be doing so with the best of intentions and are attempting to embrace life, albeit in the wrong way. IVF, when done without embryo selection, has life-creating potential. wheras abortion always destroys life. Very different in my view.


#11

[quote="underacloud, post:10, topic:334968"]
Angie,

It sounds like your comments were lagrely appropriate in the context of the conversation, but perhaps that level of catechesis is beyond some of the people in the group at present.

As for artificial insemination, yes it is considered wrong, but not nearly as sinful as abortion, unless of course abortion is directly involved in the process (ie multiple emryos fertilised but selectively chosen). I would use a different tone of voice in discussing the sinfulness of each, since abortion is directly, inherently wrong, whereas many people who attempy IVF may be doing so with the best of intentions and are attempting to embrace life, albeit in the wrong way. IVF, when done without embryo selection, has life-creating potential. wheras abortion always destroys life. Very different in my view.

[/quote]

Thanks for your comments and explaining your point of view. And this is perhaps where I am struggling with learning to speak the truth in love. Yes abortion destroys life and yes artificial insemination creates it. However, at the end of the day, I am a strong believer that God judges and IMO the women who has had an abortion and repented will make it to heaven a lot faster than the people who participated in artificial insemination and never repented. heck, a lot of my sins are very less grave than abortion, but I still worry that if I do not repent to the level God expects of me, I won't make it to heaven.

And, as much as abortion destroys life, a lot of good comes from death. For example, wasn't MAAD (mothers against drunk driving) created by a mom who lost her son to a drunk driver? what about all the lives that death saved? However, the mom who son's drove drunk and never killed anyone did not do to much to save other lives.

So, at the end of the day, I believe my big issues is learning to speak the truth in love and to imitate Jesus in how he treats others who choose to sin

Thanks for helping me talk this through

Angie


#12

[quote="Anglewannabe, post:1, topic:334968"]
Last week, I posted about how I was at a church group and I was trying to make the point that the Catholic church has the true teachings and I got the hot seat because everyone else seemed to be implying I was not being fair to protestants.

Well, I brought my CCC with me just in case the discussion got going again, fully intending not to use it unless someone else brought up the topic. The facilitator started by saying that she wanted to say that last week she should not have let the conversation go off tangent because we are not here to make anyone feel bad. She then asked if anyone had anything they wanted to say and no one including me spoke up. So we went on as if nothing happened.

After it was over I asked to speak to her alone and I read a part from the CCC that stated other Christians are in imperfect communion with the church and that was the point I was trying to make. I was not wanting to make anyone feel bad.

Well, we talked about it and it ended on friendly terms, but I know I will not change her opinion.

But what kills me, and I said this to her, is I can not believe that while I am standing in a Catholic church, I can not comfortably state the teachings of the church without getting the hot seat.

She said 'we are not to make people feel bad', to which I replied, 'Come judgement day, I will need to face God and if people have the wrong idea about the church teachings, I don't want Him to accuse me of not speaking up. And if I don't have the words to say it politely, I have no problem answer for being rude, that is the lesser sin'

Then I pointed out that as few weeks ago, we watch a video where a woman regretted having two abortions. She did not know at the time it was a sin because everyone was encouraging her and she suffered deeply until she came to the Catholic church repented and confessed. So I feel that had this woman known the truth, she never would have had the abortions which is why we need to speak up. This lady said to me 'That is different, all denominations think abortion is a sin so it is OK to speak up against it. But since some denominations do not think contraceptives are a sin, we can not speak up against it because it will make people feel bad':eek:

She was so adamant that people's feelings come first. She even said to me 'What would Jesus day do'. I forget what I replied but next time she says to me 'what would Jesus do', I am going to reply 'He would say 'go and sin no more''

I am just so heart broken that I can not speak church teachings in a Catholic church just because some protestant might want to join our group

Angie

[/quote]

I have been where you are. It is so hard to be in a group where the leadership is wishy-washy. You have done a great job of bringing this to her attention. It may be time to go to the pastor and express your concerns in a charitable way. If he does not support you. Then on the the Bishop. At least you have done what you can. In all things pray for her and for the group.


#13

Blessed are you! She was wrong, and your explanations and reasoning are true: we should not be worred about people's feelings when it comes to the Truth, especially cow-towing to Protestant beliefs when there may not even be Protestants present.


#14

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