Trying to understand the division of Islam and Israel


#1

Do Jewish, Muslim, and/or Christians believe there are wars and hatred in heaven?

Are Muslim and Jewish people related? Didn’t Islam develop from Ishmael, the son of Hagar and Abraham, and Israel come from Isaac, the son of Sarah and Abraham?

Are the fundamental differences between Islam and Israel a matter of sibling rivalry? Don’t both want to please the same God? Is God pleased to see these two brothers hating and killing each other? Is it like the story of Cane and Able, over and over and over again?

Is it possible their differences will ever be resolved, or will each continue to harbor resentment, mistrust and hatred for the other until the end of time? Do Jewish and Muslim people want to live in peace with each other?

When Christians pray, “Our Father, in heaven, Hollowed is Your name. Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…” aren’t we asking for peace to reign in the hearts of mankind, upon earth, as it is in heaven? Do some believe their are wars and hatred in heaven?


#2

Do Jewish, Muslim, and/or Christians believe there are wars and hatred in heaven?

Though the Revelation To John seems to indicate that there could be a war in Heaven, I can’t really speak for Judaism or Christianity. In Islam, however, Heaven is a peaceful place, free from any kind of fighting, hatred…or any competition in general.

Are Muslim and Jewish people related? Didn’t Islam develop from Ishmael, the son of Hagar and Abraham, and Israel come from Isaac, the son of Sarah and Abraham?

The answer is yes and no. We must distinguish here between ethnicity and religion. When one person is said to be Jewish by faith, it’s also understood that person’s ethnically Jewish, or as belonging to the Israelite nation, the children of Isaac (PBUH) (that is, with very few exceptions to the contrary). Thus being “Jewish” is both a religious and ethnic label.

But someone’s being Muslim is ONLY a religious label. The children of Isaac’s brother, Ishmael (PBUH), are the Arabs (ethnicity). But while Muhammad (PBUH) was ethnically an Arab, and the Muslim religion was launched by ethnic Arabs, Islam, unlike the Jewish faith, was always open to non-Arabs, and non-Arabs adopted it by the millions. Today there are many more non-Arab Muslims than Arab Muslims.

Are the fundamental differences between Islam and Israel a matter of sibling rivalry?

No, and don’t believe any claims that the Arabs and Jews have been fighting for “thousands”, or “millions” of years. They have only been fighting since 1948, when the State of Israel was established.

Is it possible their differences will ever be resolved, or will each continue to harbor resentment, mistrust and hatred for the other until the end of time?

This question involves making a prediction about the redress of grievances on both sides of the conflict, which seemingly must be redressed. Once they are, there’s nothing stopping peace.


#3

Hi all!

I will try to make as full a post as possible without breaking my cyberrule of never discussing the Israeli-Arab conflict on line.

Of course we do not believe that there are any wars or hatred in the world-to-come. We acknowledge Muslims to be fellow fully-fledged monotheists. Judaism & Islam have much in common and much that we could agree about.

Our Sages comment on the verse that says Isaac and Ishmael came together to bury their father Abraham & teach that they reconciled; I pray that that their descendants will learn from their example & reconcile as well!

Personally, I am an optimist. In adition to our peace treaties with Egypt & Jordan, I cite historical precedent as reasons for my optimism:

Emir Faisal, son of Sherif Hussein, the leader of the Arab revolt against the Turks, signed an agreement with Chaim Weizmann and other Zionist leaders during the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. It acknowledged the “racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people” and concluded that "the surest means of working out the consummation of their national aspirations is through the closest possible collaboration in the development of the Arab states and Palestine.” Furthermore, the agreement looked to the fulfillment of the Balfour Declaration and called for all necessary measures “…to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil.”22

Faisal had conditioned his acceptance of the Balfour Declaration on the fulfillment of British wartime promises of independence to the Arabs. These were not kept.

Critics dismiss the Weizmann-Faisal agreement because it was never enacted; however, the fact that the leader of the Arab nationalist movement and the Zionist movement could reach an understanding is significant because it demonstrated that Jewish and Arab aspirations were not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Link: jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/weizfais.html.
(See also israelnationalnews.com/print.php3?what=article&id=1802.)

Shenango, you posted:

Islam, unlike the Jewish faith, was always open to non-Arabs,

With all due respect, this is not exactly true. While we do not proselytize, we certainly accept converts & always have. People from every race & ethnic background have converted to Judaism (and still do).

They have only been fighting since 1948, when the State of Israel was established.

This is also not exactly true; see jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html & tinyurl.com/8l2be.

Be well!

ssv :wave:


#4

Thank you both, for your reply and perspective. It is good to know there are similarities and desires for reconciliation with all who desire to please The Almighty. I pray for peace and believe in my heart it is part of Christian prayer for it to be on earth, one day, as it is in heaven.

I have many more questions but no time, at the present to construct and ask. I hope to have the occasion soon.

Blessings and peace to you,
Elizabeth


#5

stillsmallvoice:

You really need to learn history as it is and not as seen by bias politically motivated Zionists or anti-Islam groups.
The links you referred tells a lot about your attitude.
Religiously, there is no real conflict between Jews and Arabs/Muslims. Politically, yes and it is started with the illegitimate creation of State of Isreal in 1948 due to the Zionists and British Evil Empire’s conspiracy. we all know that.
Prior to 1948, there was no real problem between them. Islam considers Jews among the People of the Book ( the ones whom God Almighty gave the Revelation ) as such their position is not like pagans or disbelievers.
Second, Islamic point of view based on God’s Revelation is that Jews are not guilty of crucifying Jesus Christ (pbuh). Because Jesus Christ (pbuh) did not die on the cross in the first place, but it was appeared to them so and most certainly they did not kill him.
Now due to this clearance from alleged crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh), from God Almighty, no muslim will ever look at Jews as criminals or killers. It is the only “Christiandom” due to her wrong interpretation of the Holy Bible, sees Jews as ‘Killers of Christ’. Now this Christiandom assessment/view which is absolutely false, made Jews to suffer a lot throughtout their history for thousands of years. They have been massacred brutally and kicked out/thrown out from every Christian nation/country/land by blaming/labelling them as “Christ Killers” and as a result these poor/innocent Jews had to take refuge in Arab/Muslim lands where they were welcomed as their cousins ( being children of Prophect Isaac-pbuh) and as ‘People of the Book’ and given shelter and honor. As such Jews had very good time under muslim rule. This is undeniable FACT. No unbiased person with common sense will ever deny it.
Now do not refer me to sites that are belong to either Zionists Propaganda or those who are disguised and enemies of Jews.
As to Catholic stand/view on Jewish part in the so-called alleged “crucifixion” I will refer to you some undeniable qoutes in the next post. There you will find how harsh is the truth.


#6

It was in 1965, that the Roman Catholic Church partially abandoned its historical stance towards Jews and Judaism. In a remarkable reversal of their position, the Church rejected its earlier teachings that:

All of the Jews in Palestine circa 30 CE were responsible for the execution of Jesus.
All Jews who are currently living are also responsible for Jesus’ death.
God has rejected Jews because they murdered of Jesus.

Lets have a brief description of past centuries view:

3rd century CE: Origen (185 - 254 CE): “The blood of Jesus falls not only on the Jews of that time, but on all generations of Jews up to the end of the world.”

St. Cyprian of Carthage (circa 200 - 258): “This name rebukes and condemns the Jews who not only spurned Christ faithlessly, but also cruelly executed Him Who was announced to them by the prophets, and sent first to their nation. No longer may they call God their Father, because the Lord confounds and refutes them, saying: ‘your father is the devil’ [John 8:44]. O sinful nation, O people weighed down with guilt, breed of evil-doers, lawless children, you have turned your backs on the Lord and have provoked the Holy One of Israel.”

4th century CE: St Athanasius (circa 296 - 373): Jews “…have no abiding place, but they wander everywhere … But in every place they transgress the law, and as the judgments of God require; they keep days of grief instead of gladness. Now the cause of this to them was the slaying of the Lord, and that they did not reverence the Only Begotten … Therefore the Lord cursed them under the figure of the fig tree.”

St. Hilary of Poitiers (315 - 367) referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever.

John of Antioch (347 - 407) (a.k.a. John Chrysostom): He delivered a group of four homilies titled “Against the Jews”. Homily 4 said, in part: “The difference between the Jews and us in not a small one, is it? Is the dispute between us over ordinary, everyday matters, so that you think the two religions are really one and the same? Why are you mixing what cannot be mixed? They crucified the Christ whom you adore as God. Do you see how great the difference is? How is it, then, that you keep running to those who slew Christ when you say that you worship him whom they crucified?”

5th century CE: St. Jerome (circa 345 - 420): “Judas betrayed Me [Jesus], the Jews persecuted and crucified Me…In particular, this is the story of Judas; in general it is that of the Jews…Judas is cursed, that in Judas the Jews may be accursed.”

St. Augustine (354 - 430) wrote: “The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus.”

On another occasion, he wrote: “Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ.”

7th century: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain in 694 CE defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other church fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their collective responsibility for the death of Jesus.

11th to 13th centuries: The First Crusade was launched in 1096 CE. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from Muslim control, Jews were a secondary target of opportunity. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged with the order: “Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!” 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for eight additional crusades until the 9th Crusade in 1272. Hundreds of thousands of defenseless Jews died in the attacks.

13th century: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris in 1200 CE that “the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord…As slaves rejected by God, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ’s death set free…”

continued


#7

(Remaining part of my previous post)

In an epistle to the Count of Nevers, he wrote: “…the Jews, against whom the blood of Christ calls out, although they ought not to be killed, nevertheless, as wanderers they must remain upon the earth until their faces are filled with shame and they seek the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

In an epistle to the Hierarchy of France, he wrote: “Crucifiers of Christ ought to be held in continual subjection.”

15th century: Blessed Juliana of Norwich (1342 - 1423), “I knew in my faith that the Jews were accursed and condemned without end, except those who were converted [to Christianity].”

Pope Innocent IV (1432 - 1492): “…strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a bondswoman, but as slaves condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves.”

18th century: St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori (1696 - 1787): “Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads in saying: ‘His blood be on us and our children’; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the end of time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood.” Liguori was referring to Matthew 27:21-25 which describes an alleged interchange between Pilate, the Roman Procurator of Palestine and Phoenicia, and a Jewish mob. These verses are probably responsible for more loss of Jewish life than any other
passage in the Bible:

Matthew 27:21-25: “The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas. Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.” King James Version.

(“Pharsea,” “The Supposed Perfidy of the Jews,” Faithful to the Truth, St. John Chrysostom, “Eight Homilies Against the Jews,” Medieval Sourcebook,
Max Solbrekken, “The Jews & Jesus: Mistreatment of Jews: Christian shame,”


#8

Second, Islamic point of view based on God’s Revelation is that Jews are not guilty of crucifying Jesus Christ (pbuh). Because Jesus Christ (pbuh) did not die on the cross in the first place, but it was appeared to them so and most certainly they did not kill him.

Your understanding of the mission of Jesus is contrary to Scriptures and God’s revelation. The Lord Jesus died for ALL of us. He suffered the consequences of our sins which is eternal death, and snatched us out from Satan’s hands who is the author of death.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Calvary is the fulfillement of Old Testament prophecies. You might review you Quran as well where Abraham was supposed to sacricife his only son Ishmael (but historical accuracy is that it was Isaac and not Ishmael). But this is one of the many prefigurements of what is truly to come when God the Father will send His Only Son as a sacrifice for our sins. The Father himself didn’t withold His only Son to die as a sacrifice for our sins.

Pio


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