Tubal ligation


#1

My wife had a tubal ligation after our fourth child. She was advised by her doctor to due so because the risk of her cervix and uterus rupturing was greatly increased after our last child.
Was this sinful?

Thanks:D

Kevjminn


#2

Kev, your wife didn't have the tubal litigation to prevent transmission of human life

ENCYCLICAL LETTER*[size=]
[/size] HUMANAE VITAE
*
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
PAUL VI

[FONT=Times New Roman][size=3] [LEFT]**Lawful Therapeutic Means [contraception]
*
[/LEFT]
**15.
* On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)

[/size][/FONT]vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html


#3

[quote="Trishie, post:2, topic:252598"]
Kev, your wife didn't have the tubal litigation to prevent transmission of human life

ENCYCLICAL LETTER*[size=]
*[/size]
* HUMANAE VITAE*
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
PAUL VI

[FONT=Times New Roman][size=3] [LEFT]**Lawful Therapeutic Means [contraception]
*
[/size][/LEFT]
**15.
* On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)

[/FONT]vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

[/quote]

Trishie,

I don't think you are looking at the right citation for this situation. A tubal ligation doesn't cure bodily disease. It sounds like in the OP's case, the tubal would be to prevent the complications that might result from a future pregnancy. The CCC is the source that addresses this.

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

Kev, all of this is the Catholic teaching. If your wife is Orthodox, she should talk to her confessor about this. Or you can try posting the question in the Eastern Catholicism forum to see if someone more knowledgeable about Orthodox teaching can answer.


#4

[quote="Trishie, post:2, topic:252598"]
Kev, your wife didn't have the tubal litigation to prevent [FONT=Times New Roman]transmission of human life

Except when my mother did the same thing, she was condemned to hell by some perfect people on here.

Especially by a troll named ddarko...avoid asking him any questions about birth control or anything else.

[/quote]


#5

Peyton, I don’t remember anyone condemning your mother to hell, but if someone did so explicitly, then I’d like to apologize on behalf of them. No one can judge the state of another person’s soul.

The fact remains that intentional sterilization is gravely wrong. A person who freely chooses to sterilize him or herself for the purposes of avoiding future children, and who does so knowing that it is wrong, commits mortal sin. Mortal sin cuts us off from God’s grace, and a person who dies in unrepentant mortal sin chooses to spend eternity away from God. This is not an attack on your mother or anyone else who has sinned. But you have to call a spade a spade.


#6

My mother got a tubal ligation because her life was in danger.

Would you like to condemn her, too? Mostly everybody else seems to want to…


#7

In itself sterilization is objectively a grave sin.

The following is from the Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

  1. What is the meaning of the conjugal act?

2362-2367

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.

  1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

  1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html


**But it there is more involved in committing a sin then the grave matter. There is a question of knowledge and deliberate consent. **


More from the compendium…

  1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

  1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.


Whatever the case…God desires to give us his mercy…he seeks our repentance from sin and to love us …


#8

Here’s my issue. My wife had it done so that she wouldn’t risk death from another pregnancy. It was a decision that was made by the both of us. We have 4 children and we figured the risk of them not having a mother was more of a concern than being open to the possibility of life. Again, we already have 4 children. I have heard a few different opinions, but I wanted to know what the Churche’s teaching is on this. Honestly, if it is a sin, I will seriously question my faith. How can every situation be defined in a line from the catechism?

I’m good on what the Orthodox Church says on the subject. I’m just interested on what the RC teaches at this point.

Thanks:thumbsup:


#9

[quote="kevjminn, post:1, topic:252598"]
My wife had a tubal ligation after our fourth child. She was advised by her doctor to due so because the risk of her cervix and uterus rupturing was greatly increased after our last child.
Was this sinful?

Thanks:D

Kevjminn

[/quote]

It seems to me that your wife did took the advice of a medical profession without any knowledge that anything she was doing could be sinful. If this is indeed the case, at worst it would be a venial sin, and possibly no sin at all. Speak to a priest is you need additional clarification.


#10

[quote="Bookcat, post:7, topic:252598"]
In itself sterilization is objectively a grave sin.

The following is from the Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

  1. What is the meaning of the conjugal act?

2362-2367

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.

  1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

  1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html


*But it there is more involved in committing a sin then the grave matter. There is a question of knowledge and deliberate consent. *


More from the compendium...

  1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

  1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.


Whatever the case...God desires to give us his mercy..he seeks our repentance from sin and to love us ...

[/quote]

"The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them."

I don't understand this. Does this mean that my wife and I should no longer have sex because we are not open to the transmission of life because of her surgery?


#11

[quote="kevjminn, post:8, topic:252598"]
Here's my issue. My wife had it done so that she wouldn't risk death from another pregnancy. It was a decision that was made by the both of us. We have 4 children and we figured the risk of them not having a mother was more of a concern than being open to the possibility of life. Again, we already have 4 children. I have heard a few different opinions, but I wanted to know what the Churche's teaching is on this. Honestly, if it is a sin, I will seriously question my faith. How can every situation be defined in a line from the catechism?

I'm good on what the Orthodox Church says on the subject. I'm just interested on what the RC teaches at this point.

Thanks:thumbsup:

[/quote]

May I please ask what the Orthodox Church says on the subject?


#12

[quote="kevjminn, post:10, topic:252598"]
"The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them."

I don't understand this. Does this mean that my wife and I should no longer have sex because we are not open to the transmission of life because of her surgery?

[/quote]

No it means that you should try to seek understanding in your heart for the Church's teaching on this subject (sounds like you already are :thumbsup:) and make the best Confession you can which may be imperfect as opposed to perfect. (Imperfect is for fear of punishment; perfect is for love of the Lord's law - simple definition but it is the easiest I have ever been given) Then you can resume sexual relations. Some couples as a penance choose to observe periods of abstinence during what would have been fertile times. The Church does not require it to be reversed.

Now I personally did have mine reversed. I had mine done before I was Catholic and as I learned the Church's teaching and learned about NFP I was convinced that this was what I wanted to do. NFP is a very good way to avoid that does not take God out of the equation. But you can put God back in by doing the above.

I hope you do not see anything I have said as condemning you to Hell or anywhere else. I have been there. God bless.


#13

So it is a sin? We should have to confess that? And what is NFP? Natural family planning?


#14

[quote="kevjminn, post:10, topic:252598"]
"The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them."

I don't understand this. Does this mean that my wife and I should no longer have sex because we are not open to the transmission of life because of her surgery?

[/quote]

No it does not mean that. For you are currently not doing something to frustrate things.

In the case of a past completed act of sterilization it does not mean that. The couple who is repentant of the sterilization can be forgiven etc. (A Catholic who has sinned this way needs to go to confession with contrition and firm purpose of amendment etc..see Catechism)

The Church does not require couples to have such reversed (due to the not good rate of success I think and the expense, pain etc...) .. so the situation now is relations with your wife is similar to those who are infertile naturally. The repentant couple is not now currently frustrating the act the have repented of doing so etc and are not currently frustrating the act. Through their repentance their will can now be in the right direction and they can be open to life though not able likely to have a child ...just as couple is very infertile naturally.

(I would also note that in say a very very small (1%) of cases a conception I think can happen.. So with the serious reasons one has..one may want to think of NFP.)


#15

NFP...couple of resources.

creightonmodel.com/

ccli.org/


#16

[quote="kevjminn, post:13, topic:252598"]
So it is a sin? We should have to confess that? And what is NFP? Natural family planning?

[/quote]

If you have not already then yes, you should go to Confession. Yes, NFP is Natural Family Planning.


#17

[quote="Rence, post:11, topic:252598"]
May I please ask what the Orthodox Church says on the subject?

[/quote]

It depends. Read The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware. Chapter 14 covers it loosely. Which is the way it should be covered. It depends on the situation.


#18

[quote="joanofarc2008, post:16, topic:252598"]
If you have not already then yes, you should go to Confession. Yes, NFP is Natural Family Planning.

[/quote]

See.......Neither one of us sees it as a sin of any kind. Just a preventative measure. I have some thinking to do now.

Thanks for the responses.


#19

[quote="kevjminn, post:17, topic:252598"]
It depends. Read The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware. Chapter 14 covers it loosely. Which is the way it should be covered. It depends on the situation.

[/quote]

So, in your situation, it was approved by your spiritual guide within the Orthodox Church?


#20

I just noticed that you are not the Catholic party - I apologize if I have said anything in that wrongful assumption that offended you.

Is your wife the Catholic party or are you just interested in the stance of the Church?

Since this is kind of new this is a book I would recommend and you can pick it up for $13. It covers every Church teaching as it relates to women and the practical reasons not just the theological reasons why it is better.


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