Two shall become one


#1

I just read the most recent article posted and the man mentions that man and woman during sex become one body that can never be separated again.

Is this because of sex? Or is this because of the Sacrament of Matrimony being permanent?


#2

It is the consumation of marriage that does this.


#3

Ok so I know the scriptures tell us the two will become one flesh. obviously they still have separate bodies, what then is joined? And how do we know this?


#4

The Sacrament which is the mystery.

By the way, the Roman Catholic Church does not teach that Matrimony is permanent. It ends in the death of one (or both).


#5

ok which one is it.

If it is not permanent then why did homeboy who wrote the article earlier say that it is?


#6

[quote="katholikos12, post:5, topic:326567"]
ok which one is it.

If it is not permanent then why did homeboy who wrote the article earlier say that it is?

[/quote]

It is permanent in life and indissoluble by man


#7

ok thanks that part makes sense.

Now which part melds the two into one flesh? The sacrament or consummation?


#8

Oh my. If the two have become as one, sometimes in the physical and hopefully in the spirit, since God is present at the wedding and should be at all times in the marriage. I disagree with insolubility by man, especially if the husband or wife go AWOL from the God portion of the program. I.e. a man claiming to be Christian, in a marriage blessed by God, does not abuse the kids nor try to kill the wife. He has become something other than the man she married, he has become antithetical to the laws of God and man, and has he not in essence dissolved that marriage? He has gone beyond reasonable in every way, shape, and form of the covenant…‘respect her as he would the church’ ‘as he would his own body’…and as far as the Love…if you’re not for us you’re against us, kinda thing…


#9

The consummation does the melding.

[quote=CCC]Can. 1141 A marriage that is ratum et consummatum can be dissolved by no human power and by no cause, except death.
[/quote]


#10

This still doesn’t answer my question from before.

If the two become one flesh, and obviously each keeps their own body, what melds? Each others souls? Or spirits?

If that is so then what is the basis for that teaching?


#11

The Catholic Church teaches that Matrimony is indissoluble.


#12

Your are asking a deep theological question. You seem to be looking for a concrete answer, however I can give you me personal answer.

My wife and I allow God in our marriage. When we become one, so to speak, we have the possibility to see the physical results of our actions, our children. If no child is produced, we know we were at least spiritually bonded, trying to meet each other needs as we would meet our own needs.

I hope this helps. I will be waiting for better answers . :popcorn:


#13

Unfortunately this can and does happen and the marriage will stand if it is valid. Even if the husband wants to kill his wife, and has killed them before (King Henry VIII), the Church will not dissolve a valid marriage.


#14

Umm, it says husbands and wives should be those things. It doesn’t say they are no longer married if they start behaving badly, just as it doesn’t mean they are no longer married if one, say, becomes paralysed or too ill to perform their marital duties or whatnot.

Remember the vows? ‘For better for worse’? Well ill treatment by one’s spouse is part of the worse. The promise is made before God of fidelity under whatever good or bad circumstances arise in future. God is, if you like, the third party in a Christian marriage, and given that it only takes you and God to have a binding agreement or covenant, it cannot unilaterally be broken by the actions of your spouse.

It goes without saying that for practical purposes physical and financial separation of husband and wife, and even civil divorce, may become necessary. Bad behaviour in a spouse does not of itself dissolve the bond, though, or make inoperative the sacrament or unbind you from your promises to God. You promise to God to forsake all others than your spouse for as long as both of you shall live, not as long as your spouse shall be faithful, or otherwise remain as they are now - as rich, or as good looking or in as good health.


#15

The consummation is the physical, outward sign of the union that has been effected and ratified by the Sacrament of Matrimony. So basically…both. :slight_smile:


#16

Indissolubility does not have exceptions? Then what of many of the Saints and Crowned heads of Europe…and Henry’s predecessors…How much of the HRE?

If you go for semantics, you can always find loops to take you where you care to go. If you don’t go for semantics, you can always find loops to take you where you care to go. Marriage can occur without benefit of ‘legal’ in terms of governments, although they are to be respected. Is God there? In both consenting parties? God is the figurative and the people involved in marriage are subordinate to God in that love. period. LOVE is first and foremost and God is love.


#17

Not in a valid marriage.
in·dis·sol·u·ble (nd-sly-bl):

  1. Permanent; binding: an indissoluble contract; an indissoluble union.
  2. Impossible to dissolve, disintegrate, or decompose: an indissoluble compound.
    -http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indissolubility

Not sure what you are saying here. What of them? Who are you talking about?

I can agree to this.

Is God there in a Sacramental Marriage? I would say yes. In a legal marriage by the state only? I do not know if God is there. If two Atheist who rejected God got married in a legal sense, is God present in their marriage? I would say no since they rejected God in the first place. If two Catholics got married by a Justice of the Peace for no real reason, then no unless it is approved by the Church. That is why the Church needs to covalidate a marriage that was not done by the Church. We must remember that marriage is a religious act that is kinda protected by the state. If the Christians who were not Catholic got married in a church-I guess that would depend on their intent. All that is theoretical though.

However I will agree with you that God is Love, but he is more than love as well. He is suffering, vengeful, kind, caring, jealous and much more. If we only focus on the love part, it gives us room to do whatever we want because “God loves us no matter what”. Then you start to make the argument for Sola Fide (Faith Alone).:eek:


#18

Exactly! thats why its in the theology section. what teaching says there is a melding of the two people.

obviously the people retain their actual bodies.

So what melds? the souls?

if so, how is this teaching derived?


#19

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