typology and Judaism of today


#1

In a myriad ways Jesus fulfilled Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and David, just to mention a few.

Do we have dialogues with the Jewish people along these lines today?

thank you


#2

I doubt it. If you are going to take the position that Jesus fulfilled Abraham, Moses and David (whatever that means) then it doesn’t sound like we have a lot to talk about.


#3

Have you read the Christian Scriptures?


#4

I’ve read the Gospels.


#5

I want to thank you for your answer.

Do you speak for all Jews?

Do the Gospels seem to say that Jesus was the Messiah?

What if this guy Jesus was the Messiah?

I shall not ask more questions.

I am not going to ask more questions because I do not wish to offend.

Also, I surely don’t want to fight.

God Bless!


#6

There is not much in the Gospels that, from a jewish perspective, would lead us to conclude Jesus was the Messiah. None of the miracles he is said to have done would prove it. His apparent capitulation to Roman authority would be contrary to what the Jews were/are looking for in a Messiah, which is, among other things, a military leader.

Certainly crucifixion and resurrection were not signs of the Messiah that Jews were looking for. As far as the “what if Jesus was the Messiah” question, I can’t really answer that, except to say that we believe if he was the Messiah, he would have heralded in a Messainic age, that would have included having the Jews gathered back to Israel, the whole world worshipping the One God, the rebuilding of the Temple, and some other things. So I guess, as a Jew, I would say that if Jesus were the Messiah, then our scripture was wrong.


#7

I don’t speak for all Jews. But a belief that Jesus fulfilled Adam or anyone else is fundmentally contrary to Judaism.


#8

Again, I want to thank you for your answers.

Again,

God Bless!!!


#9

Please forgive me for changing my mind and asking another question.

According to your opinion and using the Jewish Scriptures, if the Messiah were to come today, what kind of military leader would he be?

What other attirbutes should one look for in Messiah?

Again, I hope that I do not offend.

Thank you!


#10

Here are some answers to previous posts (btw, I used to be an Orthodox Jew)

The first prophecy I will address is Isaiah 11:12, which describes G-d bringing the Jews together from the four corners of the Earth. The conventional Jewish interpretation of this is that G-d will literally bring all the world’s Jews together in Israel. This interpretation is fundamentally flawed, however, for several reasons. The first is that even if G-d did bring together all the world’s Jews, they wouldn’t even physically fit into the state of Israel!

I think that Christianity holds a much more reasonable view, and it comes in understanding the world wide view of the Church. The Christian understanding is that when Jesus came, the Church, which transcends ethnicity or nationality, became the new Israel. Through evangelization, the entire world becomes united in Christ; The pagans are brought together from the four corners of the Earth. This is intrinsically connected to another important prophecy which says that through the messiah, all the nations of the Earth will know the Lord. (Isaiah 66:23). If through the messiah, all the nations will come to know the one true G-d, then they would all become Jews. But because Judaism is ethnically and nationally based this is impossible.

We are left with three more prophecies to discuss: He will rebuild the temple (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27), through him all people will come to observe G-d’s law (Ezekiel 37:24), and he will rule at a time of universal peace (Micah 4:3).

To understand how these prophecies are fulfilled in Jesus, one has to have a basic grounding of some fundamental Jewish concepts.

  1. Original Sin - Jews believe that Adam and Eve were created with an equal potential to choose good and evil. However, because Adam’s first ethical decision was to sin, his ethical nature became more inclined to sin. In addition to this, Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, preventing them from living eternally with G-d.

  2. The afterlife - The solution to the above scenario? Healing. G-d
    wants us, both soul and body, to get better. How does he do this?

Judaism has an answer: if you are holy enough, you enter either Gehinom, or, if you’re really holy, you go straight to heaven. What is Gehinom? Gehinom is a state of being, during which G-d’s light and love permeate your soul so much that you are capable of being in communion with G-d (in heaven). But what happens to your body? It is rebuilt. At the resurrection of the dead, your soul and newly constructed body are united in a New Earth (Olam Ha Ba, the World to Come). Because your soul has been repaired and in fact elevated by G-d, life in the World to come is complete bliss - everyone chooses good.

What does this mean for messianic prophecy? Everything. In the World to Come, there is universal peace (Micah 4:3), everyone observes G-d’s law (Ezekiel 37:24), and all nations know G-d (Isaiah 66:23). It makes perfect sense, then, for the messiah to accomplish all these things by bringing them to heaven! The more people that get into purgatory and heaven, the more people will be able to live in the World to Come. This is the purpose of evangelization.

Taking into account the Jewish idea of the World to Come, Jewish
expecations for these messianic prophecies really make no sense, since modern Jewish theology says that the Messiah is supposed to come before the World to Come. But if the world is repaired before the World to Come, if there is universal peace, and if everybody on Earth is observing G-d’s law, then why would G-d destroy the Earth in favor of a new one? In fact, why bring us to Gehenom for spiritual repair at all?

Finally I will address the prophecy of the rebuilding of the Temple
(Ezekiel 37:26 - 27). Jesus says clearly that he will rebuild the temple . At the moment of his death, the veil which covered the entrance to the Holy of Holies (where only the High Priest could enter because of the extreme closeness to G-d) was torn - this signifying that G-d was breaking down the barrier between Him and mankind. Today, this is seen most clearly in the Eucharist. When the priest consecrates the bread and wine on the altar, they literally become the sacrificed Jesus, who is G-d. When Christians recieve Communion, they are literally taking G-d inside of them, in a physical union. This is the new temple. The entire Church, not just one high priest, enters the Holy of Holies every time a Mass is offered.

The Catholic Church also teaches that in the World to Come there will indeed be a physical temple. The book of Revelation gives its dimensions - the dimensions of the third temple are exactly that of the Holy of Holies in Solomon’s temple. The entire temple is a Holy of Holies. Because our souls will have been repaired in heaven, we will be able to be in the full presence of G-d. This extroardinary connection with G-d is something only Christianity offers.


#11

you’re kidding, right?


#12

First, he would be human, not God.
He will gather all the Jewish people from the diaspora into Israel. (Isaiah 11:12).

His rule will be marked by world peace (Micha 4:3).

He will win actual battles for Israel and be a great judge.


#13

I don’t know if vennet was really ever an orthodox jew (his profile was created today) but his views certainly don’t mirror any kind of judaism I’ve ever heard of.


#14

In your opinion and according to Jewish Scriptures, will the Messiah be a human person of Wisdom, Beauty, lovingkindness, Justice, Knowledge, and Mercy?

Is the Tree of Life related to Messiah?

"He will win actual battles for Israel and be a great judge."
Are these army or military battles?

Are these spiritual battles?

Are these battles both, army and spiritual?

What kind of peace should we look for in the Messiah?

Again, I want to thank you for your answers and dialogue. I am learning as we go. It is what I do not know that gives me understanding. THANK YOU!!!

Peace be on you!!!


#15

Concerning this question, might you give your biblical reflections, thank you. I asked it earlier this month. I did not get an answer from any other person. Please forgive the Christian context, I asked it to Catholic Christians.

St. Augustine and some of the Greek Fathers believed that “'echad” could be understood to mean “one” day and not the “first” day.

I cannot recall that being taught of the other days, that is, “sheniy,” “shaliyshiy,” “rabi’iy,” “chamiyshiy,” and “shishshiy” (two thorugh six).

However, it seems to be implied in St. Augustine’s Literal Meaning of Genesis. I do not know if I remember correctly or not.

My question: Is it correct in the creation accounts of Genesis to see One, Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth in place of the First Day, the Second Day, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? St. Augustine seems to say that it all happened at once but is explain in parts or steps to us.

Can a scholar help clear up my understanding?

Thank you!

Sorry, it is difficult to for me to phrase my questions.

Be forgive my transliteration, I do not know how to do such a thing. I copied it the best that I could.


#16

There’s no relation between the tree of life and the Messiah, that I can think of. There may be some Jewish midrash on this or you could make an interesting analogy and I’d love to hear it.

The battles are both, I believe. Certainly the uniting of the entire Jewish people will require both. We believe the Messiah will usher in a era of world peace, in that there will be no wars.
As for what his attributes will be, I’ll give you the standard list, which can be found on various Jewish websites:

  1. He must be Jewish. (Deu. 17:15)

  2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah. (Gen. 49:10)

  3. He must be a direct descendant of King David and Solomon. ( 2 Samuel 7:12-13 – Jews believe that since Joseph is not the father of Jesus, his geneology is irrelevant)

  4. He must gather the Jews from exile and restore them to Israel (Isaiah 11:12) Israel, by the way, can easily hold 15 million.

  5. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ez. Chapt. 37). This requirement however, may be fullfilled either by us doing it to usher in the messainac age, the Messiah doing it, or the Temple actually descending from Heaven. Opinions on this differ within Judiasm and were addressed in another thread.

  6. He will rule at a time of world wide peace (Micha 4:3)

  7. All the jewish people will observe the commandments (Ezk 37:24).

  8. All the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve one God. (Isaiah 66:23)


#17

I just want to be clear on what you are asking. Are you saying that instead of creation occurring over 7 days, it can be viewed as occurring perhaps on one day in seven steps?


#18

My personal belief is that there was a reason Creation took place over a period of time. Could not God have done it instantenously? of course. So the fact that we learn it occurred in a succession of days must mean something. And I think it teaches that all creation requires the imposition of order on chaos.

As for the actual language being interpeted as setps rather than days, I’ll get back to you on that. I have to check the hebrew text to see if the word “Yom” was used.


#19

I am not trying to be humble. I am trying to be honest. I am not a scholar. I am being honest. I find it most difficult to ask these questions. I am not a scholar. Therefore you must forgive my poor wording. Thank you!

I cannot recall Augustine’s exact words.

My memory is that it was one complete work. It is explained in sixth or parts or steps, as Talmud says: “Torah speaks the language of men.”

When I read this in Augustine I recalled that Talmudic literature said that Moses received one word. Moses however explained it in ten words.

Again, I cannot recall if it is in Talmud, Talmudic literature, Philo or even the Rambam. It could even have been in an author like Gershom Scholem.

Again, it is difficult to convery my ideas.


#20

When Messiah appears and before the time great peace, do you expect a great war?


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.