Open thread to discuss the situation in Ukraine
I hear what your saying but I don’t find a unanimous vote to be compelling evidence of a free democratic society. I don’t see where that is anything but predictable given the exclusive agenda. Looks like a police state to me, and when your in one you go along to get along. “When is Rome act like the Romans”. More a formality I believe.
I was just about to respond and then realised the thread had moved. True, that’s one viewpoint however from recent reports and evidence of the structure of Ukraine as a whole, the fact Crimea were handed over, in 15 minutes, to the Ukraine in 1954, and the fact they’ve always asked for autonomy - I’d guess this is what the majority of the Crimeans wish. They get their ‘Republic’ of Crimean, but with relations with another country who already has a strong military presence in their country through a long-term, friendly and workable relationship.
Isn’t it time that various peoples are allowed to break off from countries to form their own country?
Sounds fair to me.
So you believe one country (Russia) has a right to occupy another country (Ukraine), change it’s elected government, and put in place one that will do it’s bidding, then request said government to ask for Putin’s help to make it look like said occupation is not an invasion but a rescue mission, then ask said government to have a referendum, but without the option of voting against the referendum at the ballot box??
As for NELKA’s response:
I have seen many videos over the last few days of pro-Ukraine neo-nazis beating pro-Russians to a pulp and threatening to kill them, even old men but the west has no interest in showing any of this as it is all anti-Russian xenophobia.
If Hawaii wanted total independence from America or wanted to join Japan than they should be allowed to choose. (If Japan wanted them).
Just like England should be allowed to choose to leave Scotland, northern Ireland and the eu.
So pro-Ukrainians who beat up pro-Russians are neo-Nazis but pro-Russians who beat up pro-Ukrainians are what, just defending themselves??? It is a falsehood to believe that the pro-Ukrainians are neo-Nazis, while the pro-Russians are just a victimized minority? That is Kremlin propaganda. Moreover, it is Scotland that wishes to leave England but your country does not wish for it to secede. Oh, the irony!!!
It started peacefully. Ukrainians - many of them middle-aged women - waved flags and sang songs to celebrate the birth 200 years ago of Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko. They see him as the father of the Ukrainian language.
But by the end of the rally, pro-Russian demonstrators had turned up to gatecrash the celebrations. A line of young men and Cossacks with whips stood and glared at the rally menacingly - tension rose, and arguments broke out, both sides telling each other that Crimea is “our country”.
Then it turned nasty, very nasty. The pro-Russians chased a group into a nearby car park. First, they set upon the driver of a white van, smashing his windscreen. He tried to drive through the mob to get away but crashed into another vehicle and was attacked again.
Another person was dragged into some bushes, kicked, beaten and lashed with a Cossack’s whip.
We were threatened, too, by the pro-Russians and ran away before they set upon us as well. It was a terrifying moment, and a glimpse into the abyss that Crimea now teeters over.
Or maybe it actually was a rescue mission. Years of Crimean history would indicate that to be the case, particularly after being handed to the Ukraine, in 1954, with no referendum. Crimea has been autonomous for decades, but now they have the opportunity to be what they always wanted, a Republic.
Yes, and unicorns do exist!
No they don’t - but leprechauns do!
As with everything that’s really messy, involving a variety of cultures or only two, it’s never pretty and the solution never pleases everyone. It’ll be a question of, you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours and the better option, for those concerned, will be chosen.
It’s not a question of pleasing everyone, but a question of it’s legality, as I have stressed countless times.
It’s as legal as the new Ukrainian government, hence the rules have changed. Some view it as Russia taking over, other’s don’t. It may ‘look’ like that, but to get things done rapidly some people have to be removed and others come in. It does not infer the ones removed would not have agreed with the decision(s) made but they may have wanted to wait longer and with the volatility and unknown factor in relation to the Ukrainian government, it’s better to strike when the iron’s hot. Whether the referendum will be accepted as legal will be seen in due course, but the results of such a referendum will a bargaining tool for future negotiations. It’s playing the game with a better hand and bringing these cards to the table.
And who are these people, am I to assume that they are pro-Ukrainian neo-Nazis from your response? What if they are pro-Russian neo-Nazis, or are you of the belief that such a thing doesn’t exist?
Yanukovych was ousted by parliament (members of his own party participated in his removal and impeachment), which was backed by millions of Ukrainians wanting the same, therefore, it is legal or a lot more legal than what is going on in Crimea, i.e., the new government was put in place not by the backing of millions of Crimeans, but by Russian troops and/or Russian ethnics armed with guns in an election that was completely cut off from public scrutiny. You can deny this all you like but people with eyes to see and ears to hear know better.
It just shows that the west are blind to the truth.
The black wolf’s hook
The black wolf’s hook on yellow armbands revealed their political affiliation: the Social-National Assembly (SNA), a largely Kyiv-based neo-Nazi organisation, which hoped to register as a political party in 2011 but failed. Its leaders and ideologues are currently jailed on dubious charges.
There were also activists from other right-wing extremist organisations. The call to arms came via the social networking website VKontakte where they formed a group - ‘The Maidan Action Right-Wing Sector,’ and it was this particular group that attacked the police on Bankova Street. In addition to the SNA, the ‘Right-Wing Sector’ also includes ‘Tryzub’ (Trident) and ‘Bily Molot’ (White Hammer). Tryzub was originally formed in 1993 as a paramilitary unit of the Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists, but then became an independent organisation. In September 2009, Tryzub activists took part in attacks on gay people; and cut off the head of the Stalin monument in Zaporizhzhya in December 2010. Bily Molot is a relatively new group, which attracted some publicity by smashing a number of illegal casinos in Kyiv and the regions.
I have seen these in action at football matches, many countries have people like this but the west at the moment are acting like Putin is Satan and the Ukrainian’s are defenceless little puppies.
So you’re admitting that these groups are on the fringe of society and thus do not represent the majority of pro-Ukrainian protestors, moreover, a picture such as this does not tell me much, in fact, I have no clue as to where and when it was taken, and if they really are pro-Ukrainian, but if they are, I’ve never denied that there are some fascists which exist within pro-Ukrainian ranks (but I don’t assume that they all are, as you and tombstone have implied). Moreover, I have noticed that there are fascists/neo-Nazi supremacists in the pro-Russian ranks as well (and they are causing lots of problems in Crimea and Donetsk).
[quote=Nelka;11790604.I have seen these in action at football matches, many countries have people like this but the west at the moment are acting like Putin is Satan and the Ukrainian’s are defenceless little puppies.*
So all these countries have similar radical groups. And Ukraine is basically defenseless, And Putin is building walls of separation and segregation under a police state. An idea the West abandoned long ago.
Also are you saying this coincides with New Testament teaching with intimidation, suppression and oppression and the West ought to implement these tactics. Would you say this if this were you in the persecuted group? I don’t understand.
What truth is the West blind to, is that the Christian West, the radical groups in the West, the secular West, the KKK and neo Nazi West, the communist or socialism West. Or just generally speaking, all of them?
Hey, I just have to ask is there “anything” Putin could do which might possibly be wrong here? This isn’t Obama did this, so its OK for Putin to do such and such.
We “tolerate” Obama and with much prayer to help. But that’s not the situation we are talking about with Putin :shrug:
Just a casual observation. :sad_yes:
State sponsored thuggery is apparently ok to some people.:shrug:
Obama, IMO has never been in a similar situation to this. Currently, all the US states are within the union of the USA. We’re not talking about a situation whereby Putin’s gone into a totally foreign country that has no cultural or heritable ties to Russia. The country is on his doorstep, Crimea and Russia have centuries of history together, 97% of the Crimeans still only speak Russian. Crimea saw the mess up North and asked for help, they got it - and are now hopefully getting what they always wanted, i.e. to be a republic, not a autonomous one.
Obviously, Putin is not stupid and will get something out of it too, however the EU/US helped start the rioting - Dr John Hulsman explained it best in a piece I posted yesterday, as below. Putin also doesn’t want any problems in relation to his getting access to Russia’s only warm water port.
If Putin goes off invading countries, that have nothing to do with Russia - for whatever reasons, then it all changes.