Ukraine protests: Two people killed in Kiev clashes


#21

No. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, along with Ukraine’s three Orthodox Churches, the non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyivan Patriarchate), the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church, and the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) all approved the pro-Europe course and its priests participated in the protests and prayer services on Independence Square. It was only when Yanukovych signed a trade agreement with Putin that the latter Orthodox Church asked it priests to refrain from the protests, though some haven’t and Moscow is not pleased with the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate’s) Metropolitan, but he is not blindly pro-Putin. So this is not a religious war.


#22

Then honestly go live under Yanukovych’s regime and escape from the West as fast as you can if you feel that way. Yanukovych is now having political opponents assassinated in the woods late at night. Many of the Berkut militia feel extremely uncomfortable now having to basically defend Yanukovych’s regime. When Yanukovych outlawed freedom of assembly in Ukraine several days ago, Yanukovych Fired the Chief of Ukraine’s Army that very day because the guy wasn’t an amoral thug like Yanukovych who is willing to spill blood for Yanukovych’s wealth. Yanukovych wasn’t sure this General would order his troops to shoot at innocent people and kids so he had him removed. The same goes with the Berkut militia. If they don’t fulfill Yanukovych’s sick violent orders, they will have the same fate meted out to them.


#23

RC, probably start off with this article by the late Pope JP2’s biographer, Catholic scholar George Weigel from the National Review:
nationalreview.com/article/369214/bloodlands-george-weigel

I think the poster Anastasia linked to it earlier.


#24

This is funny because Vladimir Putin basically two months ago felt not all the press in Russia were pro-Putin enough so he actually overdid Voice of Russia and put a fellow by the name of Kiselyov, who despises Ukraine, in charge of a new Press Station which would be completely loyal to Putin. Since then the TV stations have had to toe Putin’s line even closer.

Adrian Karatnytsky in his article quotes a poll done by legitimate independent pollsters which shows some three/quarters opposition I believe now to Yanukovych in Ukraine or 25% support for Yanukovych. Simply put, Yanukovych knows he stands no chance of winning Ukraine’s next presidential elections unless opponents are arrested and the votes falsified.

Again, though, the protests in Ukraine are not anti-Russian, they are anti-Yanukovych and anti-autocratic. Many if not most Russian speakers in Ukraine are now turning anti-Yanukovych as well.

It’s funny because Yanukovych is following in Putin’s footsteps and has decimated all independent television news (or is trying) in Ukraine so that TVi is gone, 5 kanal barely holds on, and the owner of Ukraine’s most popular TV station has been replaced with a pro-Yanukovych owner whose news, unsurprisingly, claims all these people who have traveled from all the provinces of Ukraine to protest Yanukovych are in the pay of Western secret services, which is laughable because Obama couldn’t care that much about Ukraine after the reset with Russia and the EU only pays lip service. The whole Maidan protest is thoroughly from the ground-up; hence its disorganization.


Ukraine
#25

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This is what happened to the Ukrainian journalist Tetanya Chornovol, after she took pictures of the massive sick mansion the thuggish President of UkraineYanukovych built for himself on the public purse. She gets beaten to near-death late at night when a car full of Yanukovych’s thugs crash into her car, take her out, and begin punching and kicking her. Those who wish to defend Yanukovych on CAF basically have to defend this policy as well, beating young girls to a pulp, because Yanukovych is resorting to such methods more often with respect to his political critics.

And this is why people are protesting to put an end to Yanukovych’s regime. They have no wish of living in fear in a police state where thugs (titushky) and the militia beat and kill people with impunity and threaten the existence of its Catholic Church, among other things.


Ukraine
#26

Is it true that there were some policeman who were savagely beaten by the protesting mob?


#27

Umm…remember the “police” fighting the protestors and the “police” snipers who killed those innocent protestors yesterday are actually Riot Police or “Berkut”, more properly the militia inherited from the Soviet Union. Some of these Berkut have written of their ordeal secretly, being housed and isolated for 48 hours in their quarters and being hopped up on how brutal they are to be, and then let go.

I’ve seen pictures of Molotov cocktails landing on two Berkut I believe and other Berkut kicked and beaten and I deplore this. It was initially however Berkut who started off the violence back in December on Yanukovych’s orders when they were sent in and beat up innocent unarmed students in Kyiv’s Independence Square. No Berkut had been attacked then or even threatened. Remember, back then, there was no violence and the protestors had no arms but were just students from Ukraine’s universities who wanted an end to corruption in Ukraine and the rule of law. Yanukovych sent in these Berkut to physically beat these students and unleashed a violent storm which also involved the beating up of journalists resulting in the hospitalizations of many. Now Yanukovych is having opponents killed in the middle of the night and this is second nature to him.

Every time it seemed like things had cooled down, Yanukovych always upped the ante. I think a lot of people who were against force being used against the Yanukovych regime are at their wit’s end as they see no movement from him. He is a thug and a liar.

The worst is that he and his Regionnaire’s Party pay for thugs and youth from areas of Ukraine controlled by Yanukovych’s party like Kherson, Luhansk, Sevastopil and Donetsk, to show up drunk and with weapons at the anti-Yanukovych protests and start causing violence and a ruckus. These people are called “titushky” in Ukrainian. Yanukovych buses and trains in hundreds of these young male youths, some with criminal records like his own, to come to Kyiv and they get paid after they finish fighting with the anti-Yanukovych protesters and beating them up. They have clips on youtube of these guys being bused in, beating people up for Yanukovych, and being sent home. And these “titushky” or pro-Yanukovych thugs are guarded by the militia Berkut all the time and not arrested, to top this whole thing off! This is what Yanukovych has done to Ukraine’s youth.

Those who believe Yanukovych cares about Ukraine’s youth, its people, or culture are fooling themselves and I would argue those on CAF who defend his regime probably likewise don’t really care that much about Ukraine’s future but only post on here to vent their personal hatred of the West/EU/USA so Ukraine has become a proxy for their hatred of the West or themselves.

The Berkut in Kyiv are being fed a steady diet now that the protesters are on the payroll of foreigners, but not all are buying this. As I said, the Berkut in several of Ukraine’s provinces have no wish to join the ones in Kyiv (who incidentally hail from some of the places the titushky are shipped in from) in using violence against the population. Again the violence was initiated by Yanukovych and each time it began to dissipate, Yanukovych always upped the ante. Now, really, it’s just boiled over. Many of the protesters don’t wish to fight Berkut, but for weeks have been urging them to join the people - “Militsiya z Narodom” - is a common slogan, or the Militia with the People. As I said previously, Yanukovych even fired the Head of Ukraine’s army because Yanukovych is unsure he would give the command to kill innocent people. Berkut is more reliable to Yanukovych but if you asked me to wager how many of these guys wish to be doing what they are doing now, the rank and file, I’d say a minority. The problem is their chiefs, including the immoral Interior Minister, threaten their livelihoods if they don’t follow their orders. I don’t blame the rank and file Berkut, I blame the one giving them their orders - Yanukovych.


#28

Why did so many people vote for Yanukovych?


#29

Thank you Andrew, for posting all this information, it needs to be heard, if you allow me I would like to duplicate this post and put it in the prayer intentions thread I started. God bless you, and again thank you for sharing so much of what you know with us. I will continue praying.


#30

In the last presidential elections, the votes were pretty even between the democratic Tymoshenko and the authoritarian Yanukovych, but with irregularities and fraud (caurosel voting) in Yanukovych’s home province of Donetsk. Remember in 2004 Yanukovych was party to a major electoral fraud involving millions of votes fraudulently claimed for him and away from the legitimate winner Yushchenko.

But the last elections in 2010 stayed. The problem was the aforementioned Yushchenko so hated his erstwhile democratic ally Tymoshenko that he told his and other democratic candidate’s supporters to vote “proty vshikh” or against all on the Presidential ballot. This third spoiled option ballot was then chosen by about 5% of the electorate which was leaning toward Tymoshenko. If not for Yushchenko’s trouble making, Yanukovych would have lost. Indeed, Yushchenko, several days before the presidential vote made it law that Yanukovych could rely on what was called carousel voting, that is mobile voting stations showing up at factories, old folk’s homes, and voting en masse. The then President Yushchenko knew this would guarantee victory for Yanukovych basically.

This behaviour by Yushchenko was astonishing as all knew he was basically sabotaging Tymoshenko’s campaign. He hated her, to put it bluntly, and was willing to allow the country to suffer as a result. People became disenchanted in the Orange forces for this infighting. Instead of arresting Yanukovych for vote fraud in 2004, Yushchenko surprisingly made him his PM for a while. This thing would take 3 pages to fully explain. Some say it was the dioxin poisoning of Yushchenko by Yanukovych or the Kremlin which caused him to completely change.

In any event, after becoming President, current president Yanukovych has committed several major offences against Ukraine’s constitution which in any other country would result promptly in the President’s impeachment and have him kicked out of office. First, in the subsequent parliamentary votes he used Berkut forces to enforce voter falsification. Voters and honest voting station chiefs were beaten up by Berkut on Yanukovych’s orders. Thereafter, he bribed parliamentarians from the democratic parties (who held an equality) to leave the party under which they were elected and join his party. If some didn’t he had the tax police run down their or their spouse’s business. Ukraine’s constitutions stipulates a member of parliament cannot switch from the party under whose list he/she was elected to another but must resign. Yanukovych broke this constitutional law - bribing or personally threatening MPs is an impeachable offense and he committed it. Moreover, he and the Communists, against both their promises, formed a parliamentary alliance in Ukraine’s parliament against the democrats.

Yanukovych also broke Ukraine’s constitution in making Ukraine’s Supreme Court become totally subservient to his demands. Many legal scholars have pointed out this is also an impeachable offense, threatening Supreme Court Justices to create a police state.

Basically, since becoming President, Yanukovych has gone on to break every constitutional law to enforce his autocracy. At a certain stage a democratically elected leader (even if the vote isn’t completely honest) crossesthe line, changes the laws under which he was voted, and becomes a dictator. This is what Yanukovych has done.

He should have been impeached by now had he not bought off illegally members of parliament (the going rate was one million at least per chair). The Supreme Court of Ukraine had ample grounds for impeaching Yanukovych’s violations but he has personally threatened them into submission.

Yanukovych should have been arrested by Yushchenko back in 2005 for Massive Vote Fraud. He wasn’t and Yushchenko gave him a second life instead of putting him behind bars. Yanukovych was the one egging then President Kuchma to send in the tanks onto the Maidan and fire at the million peaceful protesters gathered then there during the peaceful Orange Revolution. This information of Yanukovych begging for tanks to be sent in and used on innocent protesters back in 2004/5 has been confirmed by several of those in attendance for those talks with Kuchma. Yanukovych was baying for violence against the Maidan back in 2004. Now he’s got his wish in 2014, but the people are resisting. Many believe this is their last stand before Ukraine either becomes a hopeless corrupt police state, or a colony of Putin’s autocratic Russia (and given history Ukainians have bad experience to put it mildly being ruled from Moscow) which itself is playing its own hand now and probably without Yanukovych’s knowledge though he has complained of tremendous Russian bullying on Ukraine to the EU.


#31

Thanks Josie for your concern. I’m off to bed now in any event. It’s getting late here in the Great White North. :slight_smile: and I have to visit a loved one in hospital tomorrow anyway so I don’t really need to get too riled up. :slight_smile:


#32

Thank you very much Kyiv. I think I now know what’s going on over there. And, I will be praying for all of the protesters over there, and that there will be a change of the government regime, peacefully, God willing.


#33

You say there was fraud, but all the exit polls show Yanukovych winning the February 7, 2010 election:
National Exit poll
TRK Ukraina
ICTV
SOCSI
FOM Center for marketing Research
Research and Branding group
Interfax-Ukraine
How do you explain the fact that all polls show Yanukovych winning over Tymoshenko on February 7, 2010? You appear to be in denial that Yanukovych had the support of a great many of people in Ukraine.
What exit poll showed Yanukovych losing? Do you have even one single example?


#34

I never said he lost or that exit polls show as such. I pointed out how false carousel voting in Donetsk did help him win that close election, and the “proty vsikh” fiasco helped as well. I’ve never claimed he didn’t have a significant base of supporters in the elections, but even his supporters are now becoming disenchanted with the man and Maidans are popping up in Eastern Ukraine.
Anyway, that election is not what I’m basing my argument on if you read my posts. I’m basing it on Yanukovych committing serial impeachable offenses since becoming President and definitely committing electoral fraud in the elections to the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament) for his Regions Party which took place after the Presidential elections. In the parliament Yanukovych has broken all legal codes for parliamentary procedure including during the recent law banning the right of protest/assembly which was enacted in the matter of 15 seconds without debate or proper voting. A joke democracy. That vote was a fiasco and illustrated how Yanukovych has bribed the parliament to simply rubber stamp what he says is law. He has turned from a democratically elected President into an Autocrat who imprisons or represses political opposition, threatens the Catholic Church, engages in massive corruption, and started with violence against innocent unarmed protesters back in December, among all the other things I’ve already mentioned in this thread and don’t really wish to go over again.


#35

Thanks. Thoughts and prayers.


#36

However, was this significant in any way, since all the exit polls show him winning?


#37

The man deserves to be ousted pronto! :mad:


#38

And who do you propose to replace him? Do you think that Yulia Volodymyrivna Tymoshenko would have been better?


#39

Within the last 15 minutes I heard a Fox News report that things were a little more quiet where the protesters are gathered in Kiev and that Yanukovych has offered the leader of the protests a position as “prime minister”. ??? Doesn’t sound very democratic… Sounds like there may be a need for a “recall”. Protest, but protest smart folks - just sayin.:hmmm:


#40

Klichko, Lutsenko, Yatseniuk - any of these would be better, if you knew something about Ukraine’s politics apart from wikipedia. You seem to think the Ukrainian peoples’ only option is the Devil.

Tell me something Tomdstone, why do like defending a tyrant Yanukovych who brutally beats his own people up, forbids freedom of assembly, has his son (a dentist) become a billionaire from corruption, builds mansions for himself, allies himself with the Communists, clamps down on a free press while the people wallow in penury and live in a corrupt mafia state with Don Yanukovych at the top? Why do you Tomdstone like defending him so? on a Catholic Forum at that. What in your personal background makes you such a fan of this amoral autocrat?

Which part of Yanukovych appeals to you so much since I don’t think you’re Ukrainian. Is is the fact that he’s threatened to outlaw the Catholic Church?


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