Ultramontanism - is it universal among Catolics


#1

I am now struck by how some Catolics at this site are very ardent in expressing the perfection of Latin Mass and all things Roman Catolic. They hold that there is absolute power of Pope over all bishops - a view which is called Ultramontane (meaning across mountains - in Italy from view of Germans).

This view is quite interesting but very restrictive to allow discussion. Someone may feel that he is correct, someone might feel that he has truth. But someone who has such a thing as infallibity seems already closed to discussion…

Are all Catolics like this? Perhaps there are still some who believe in Church Councils, favor other view of Office of Bishop of Rome in relation to other churches?


#2

The Pope is the head of the Latin Church so obeying him is not a matter of infallibility but obedience to the superior.


#3

I myself am growing more and more Eastern in my theology and views. The Catholic Church, I believe to be the True Church. But the Catholic Church isn’t soley Roman. It’s a Communion of Churches that believe the same way, but have different ways to express it. Most people forget that and see only the Latin Rite as the greatest.

In my opinion, the Tridentine Mass is not as beautiful and awe inspiring as the Syriac Qurbono. That’s just my opinion though.

Pace e Bene
Andrew


#4

When it comes to the Word of God no change is possible. The Church is the guardian of the Word as established by Christ 2,000 years ago. You can see the proof of this in many churches today changing their teaching. Christ promised his Church would not teach error so in that respect there is no discussion.
The Pope is preserved from error when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful, he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.


#5

Χριστός Ανέστη εκ νεκρον, θανατο θανατών πατισας και τις εν τις μνιμαση ζωήν χαρισάμενος.

in our churches we also sing:

Христов воскресе из метрвых сметию смерь поправ и сущим во гробех живот даровав.

Χριστοσ ανεστι! Αλιθοσ αντστι!!
Христос воскресе! Воистину воскресe
Christ is arosen! In truth arosen!


#6

The Pope speaks for the whole church and her councils. I believe in Church councils, yes. I also believe that Patriarchs and Archbishops of sui iuris churches have the rule over their own churches. I believe that, like the Orthodox, no one bishop has authority over another except when there is an issue. That is where the Pope steps in…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:


#7

It sounds truly beautiful in all languages!:thumbsup: :byzsoc:

My church doesn’t sing it though. I wonder if there is a Syriac counterpart of it though?

Pace e Bene
Andrew


#8

No, all RC’s dont believe this way. As a matter of point-many in first world countries dont. Personally the-as we gain greater understanding arguement of many councils to me doesnt hold water. If we are moving further in time fom Christ and the saints wouldnt we be forgetting and not learning?

That being said I am not Luther either and would not dream of leaving the church so that governments could take the Pearl.

At the same time, “if” I am called on to answer to my Lord-my response will not be “The pope said…”


#9

I’ve been interested in the Eastern Catholic Churches as well. I was recently privileged to attend the Divine Liturgy of St. James on this feast day today. How wonderful it is. What a precious gift this Apostle has given the Church.

Christ is Born!
Glorify Him!


#10

By no means. It’s one form of being RC, & I’ve not heard of Ultramontanes outside the Roman Rite; others may know better :slight_smile: It is only one way of being RC - one can believe in Papal infallibility & primacy, without being Ultramontane; plenty of Catholics manage this.

I believe the Church cannot be truly Catholic, if it be purely Roman, or if it does not include the whole of Tradition (rather than bits of it only). If it’s truly Catholic, then it will not be purely Greek & Latin: plenty of Catholics wwre neither, & are neither: such as the Copts & Chaldeans. The whole Catholic Church is the CC - no one Rite or Church can be fully Catholic by itself.

Perhaps there are still some who believe in Church Councils, favor other view of Office of Bishop of Rome in relation to other churches?

Could you clarify ? Thanks


#11

I guess that then raises the question, what are you being called to answer for where you think that there would be a difference?

“'Cause the pope said so!” Is not an answer I would offer to anyone either.


#12

The "if " statement simply refers to the two theologies of the judgement. Some believe only the condemed will be judged, others that all will be judged. I am unconcerned either way. I will do my utmost and the chips may land were they may.

As for the pope said so comment, many believe that catholics do and believe anything out of Rome without any thought or discernment whatever. We know that is not the case.

My reply to the Lord by the way is…“Lord, have mercy on me,a sinner.”


#13

Papal primacy and papal infallibility were decreed by a Church Council, the First Vatican Council (1869-1870):

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.
. . .
Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.
So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.


#14

Hi Volodymyr,

Catholics accept the authority of all the Councils that preceded the split between East and West and also those that followed in the Catholic Church.

The infallibility of the Pope, when speaking ex cathedra, was confirmed by the First Vatican Council. Therefore it is accepted by Catholics as a matter of faith.

The division among the Churches is a wound in the body of Christ. We must pray that it should be healed. This will ultimately happen because Christ prayed for it : “That they may be one.” (John 17,11)

Conversations between the Churches are always taking place and encouraged by both East and West. Arguments are not fruitful. Making clear out various positions and our reasons for holding them is a positive thing. So is the study of the things we hold in common.

Verbum


#15

Recall that only those items from an ecumenical council, of which there were 21 thus far, which are “signed off” by the Pope are held to be infallible. Even when the Western Schism took place, the Pope who was most likely the true Pope called the Council and then resigned. The new Pope selected by the Council than affirmed its actions. Yes, we believe in the Councils, but we do not believe a Council can trump the Pope.

There is the Roman Catholic or Western Church, but it is made up of a number of Rites in addition to the Latin Riteoften called by mistake the Roman Rite. All of them respect and accept the authority of the Pope, which by the way is not ultra-Montanism, a movement which basically intended to make every utterance and opinion of the Pope infallible. Vatican I declared the Doctrine of papal Infallibility, but that doctrine is not open ended and has defined limits.


#16

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