Understanding The Trinity?

We accept, “Trinity” as referring to Three Persons of God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit…

Throughout the New Testament: Jesus, and then His Apostles and those close to them, ALL refer to these Persons: both Individually as well as Including Their Infra-Spiritual Relationships… ALL reflect an Understanding and Familiarity with the 3 Persons of the Trinity! … And Barring anything not as yet revealed; there’s no sense an over-arching mystery with our forebears when it comes to God… !

When your Advocate has come, whom I will send you from the Father—the Spirit of truth that issues from the Father—he will bear witness to me” – JESUS

Can you provide the evidence from Scripture?

ALL reflect an Understanding and Familiarity with the 3 Persons of the Trinity! …

I’d like to see that from Scripture, also.

And Barring anything not as yet revealed; there’s no sense an over-arching mystery with our forebears when it comes to God… !

Do you mean that you deny the fact that the Trinity is Three Divine Person in One God?

When your Advocate has come, whom I will send you from the Father—the Spirit of truth that issues from the Father—he will bear witness to me” – JESUS

That’s from the Gospel of the Apostle John you are quoteing. Now you need to provide quotes from 10 more Apostles. I’ll give you a pass on the Iscariot.

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We accept, “Trinity” as referring to Three Persons of God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit…
Throughout the New Testament: Jesus, and then His Apostles and those close to them, ALL refer to these Persons: both Individually as well as Including Their Infra-Spiritual Relationships…

`‘Can you provide the evidence from Scripture?’ – asks, De_Maria

I certainly and easily can… However - there’s an overwhelming am’t of evidences within the New Testament which reveal - First of all JESUS’ - and then, the Apostles and others Familiarities with God - especially AFTER our Lord’s Resurrection, Ascension and then After the events BEGINNING at Pentecost!

Ergo, there’s some work ahead of any - to jump into the NT completely! So as to See for yourself.

As a simple brief - I suggest: READ John’s Gospel - Chapters 13 to 17 complete!

I await the evidence.

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Scriptures themselves ARE the evidences and You come across more as perhaps an unwitting yet pushy lawyer - than one who possesses a decent working knowledge of Scriptures…

Again - I suggest: READ John’s Gospel - Chapters 13 to 17 complete!

Are you familiar with them or not?

For, they alone reveal a lot about the infra-relationships of the Trinity…

Basically, you can provide no explicit statement from Scripture. You’re simply making things up.

The fact is that we have an explicit understanding of the Trinity from Catholic Teaching. There is nothing fleshed out in Scripture. Scripture never mentions “three person in one God”. That is the Catholic definition which you have usurped as your own.

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Scriptures themselves ARE the evidences …

“Basically, you can provide no explicit statement from Scripture. You’re simply making things up.”

Pulling an Ad Hominem? :slightly_smiling_face:

Your pushy demands suggest you do not have a decent working knowledge with SCRIPTURES in toto.

Would you care to discuss John Chapters 13 through 17 complete? Or Not?

OR, is that not explicit enough for you, De_Maria? :slightly_smiling_face:

It is not an ad hominem. An ad hominem would be refuting your argument by attacking you personally (“I know the Trinity isn’t in the Bible because anything supported by an idiot like you must be wrong” is an example).

She’s asking for specific verses. Telling someone to read five chapters of the Bible doesn’t provide evidence to build your case, hence why she’s saying you’re making things up. There are 155 verses in those five chapters: it is not unreasonable to ask you to specify which of those 155 verses support your claim.

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The traitor was replaced by St. Matthias. Acts 1:

Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, [25] To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.

[26] And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So don’t forget St. Matthias!

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“To understand God one has to be God.” - St. Gregory of Nyssa

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Like if or not, De_Maria pulled a blatant Ad Hominem - accusing me of “making things up” …
Yet… you neglected to mention that… Why?

Whereas some view Scriptures as if it is to be broken up into individual verses… .I certainly do not.

The NT: replete with books, letters, chapters - etc - were Scribed with the intention of being Read from beginning to end - so that their Context can never be lost…

So that this is not buried:

“When your Advocate has come, whom I will send you from the Father—the Spirit of truth that issues from the Father—he will bear witness to me” – JESUS – 3 Trinity Persons…

However, and since not all read Scriptures in that larger manner, I’ll become briefer; noting in this first example how Jesus speaks of Himself in connection To His Father God (2 out of 3 Trinity Persons)_
NOTE here the manners in which JESUS speaks of Himself and of His Father, God.

Thomas said, ‘Lord, we do not know where you are going, so how can we know the way?’ … Jesus replied, 'I am the way; I am the truth and I am life; no one comes to the Father except by me.

***If you knew me you would know my Father too. … From now on you do know him; you have seen him.’ … Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father and we ask no more.’ Jesus answered, 'Have I been all this time with you, Philip, and you still do not know me? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. Then how can you say, “Show us the Father?” ***

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? I am not myself the source of the words I speak to you: it is the Father who dwells in me doing his own work. … … Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else accept the evidence of the deeds themselves.

In truth, in very truth I tell you, he who has faith in me will do what I am doing; and he will do greater things still because I am going to the Father. … Indeed anything you ask in my name I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

NOTE: There are many many more verses illustrating the Trinity…
I’m not making that up. :slightly_smiling_face:

I did mention it. I addressed it by saying that it was in fact not an ad hominem and gave you an example of what one would be.

No one said that’s how Scripture should work. But you cannot base your argument on five entire chapters without elaborating how the entirely of those chapters support your claim. It is easier and more succinct to cite verses since discussion can be focused around them along with their context. @De_Maria knows better than to cherry pick Scripture while ignoring context and would undoubtedly discuss the context in whatever her response would be.

So I am finding this thread incredibly confusing. Would you please answer a simple question for me:

Do you believe in Holy Trinity, that there is one God in three Persons – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

That’s how I’m reading what you’re posting, so I’m completely unclear of the point of this thread.

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It’s a large and difficult topic…

While it is an exaggeration to say that “Jesus, and then His Apostles and those close to them, ALL refer to these Persons”, there are places where it is explicit.

Matthew 28 is the most important, because it establishes the Trinity as what is to be taught to all nations while identifying it with Baptism, the foundation of Christian life.The openings of some of St Paul’s letters are also Trinitarian.

Of course, the Church has recognized this and taught it in a more developed way than it appears in Scripture.

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Of Course I accept the Trinity… For those who find me somewhat Opaque, I apologize. Please reread my opening Post. It concerns the clear awarenesses OF the Trinity of our Forebears… I’m not denying the Trinity… I am saying that it’s Understandable to a great degree…

I’ve never ever said that 5 Chapters Alone - illustrate the clearcut fact that JESUS and His Apostles have a very close relationship with each Person OF the Trinity… Even more of John are evidences…

Portions Within the Entire Scriptures do!* – Which covers a lot of evidences!

Of course the Trinity - IS the Father Son and Holy Spirit!

I’d happened to post a few portions from John - and there are many more from John and beyond

“When your Advocate has come, whom I will send you from the Father—the Spirit of truth that issues from the Father—he will bear witness to me” – JESUS – 3 Trinity Persons…

Thomas said, ‘Lord, we do not know where you are going, so how can we know the way?’ … Jesus replied, 'I am the way; I am the truth and I am life; no one comes to the Father except by me.

**If you knew me you would know my Father too. … From now on you do know him; you have seen him.’ … Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father and we ask no more.’ Jesus answered, 'Have I been all this time with you, Philip, and you still do not know me? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. Then how can you say, “Show us the Father?” **

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? I am not myself the source of the words I speak to you: it is the Father who dwells in me doing his own work. … … Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else accept the evidence of the deeds themselves.

In truth, in very truth I tell you, he who has faith in me will do what I am doing; and he will do greater things still because I am going to the Father. … Indeed anything you ask in my name I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Thanks for clarifying. :+1:t4:

It is a large and difficult topic for our human brains to comprehend. Our human existence is one human = one person. God is unlike this, being One God = Three Persons.

Carry on with your discussion. I’ll just be lurking in the corner here.

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The Trinity - i.e., three Persons in One can be better Understood if we FIRST seek to know each Person as revealed from Scriptures themselves… My opening post intends to indicate how our Forebears – the Apostles themselves came to know and speak of Each Person of the Trinity - in a manner suggesting genuine Familiarity… And if they can, so can we, Yes?

For some children, likening the Trinity to a 3-Leaf Clover - and then never going beyond that? … Is too simplistic when compared with what Scriptures reveal…

Additionally, as for me, this general topic - which begins by pointing to Jesus and His Apostles and Followers - goes beyond any simple ‘picture’ (beginning and ending with, eg., a clover) of the Trinity - but onto spiritual “pictures” of our current and even future relationships with God…

Consider: these sections of John which are but a part of Jesus’ Words to both His Apostles, which reflects The Trinity Itself - … including a portion of Jesus’ Prayer of Petition To God the Father - all of which one would have heard were one present at The Last Supper…

It’s a lot of food for thought… … For your personal perusal and meditation.


"It is for your good that I am leaving you. If I do not go, your Advocate will not come, whereas if I go, I will send him to you.

When he comes, he will confute the world, and show where wrong and right and judgement lie. He will convict them of wrong, by their refusal to believe in me; he will convince them that right is on my side, by showing that I go to the Father when I pass from your sight; and he will convince them of divine judgement, by showing that the Prince of this world stands condemned.

’There is still much that I could say to you, but the burden would be too great for you now. However, when he comes who is the Spirit of truth, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but will tell only what he hears; and he will make known to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, for everything that he makes known to you he will draw from what is mine. All that the Father has is mine, and that is why I said, "Everything that he makes known to you he will draw from what is mine."

AFTER THESE WORDS Jesus looked up to heaven and said:

’Father, the hour has come. Glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee. For thou hast made him sovereign over all mankind, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. This is eternal life: to know thee who alone art truly God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

’I have glorified thee on earth by completing the work which thou gavest me to do; and now, Father, glorify me in thine own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world began.

’But it is not for these alone (The Apostles) that I pray, but for those also who through their words put their faith in me; may they all be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee […] The glory which thou gavest me I have given to them, that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, may they be perfectly one.

What I see here are verses which explain why Christianity developed a comprehension of a Triune God.

But nothing here, nor to my knowledge in the whole New Testament, explicits what we actually call Trinity : that is, not the fact that there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit (because, in theory, there are many, many potential ways these three “entities” could exist and be related to each other), but how they are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and still One, intimately united by the complexities of intra-trinitarian relationships and yet distinct.

John 17:3, for example, is part of what arianism used to come to the conclusion that Jesus was begotten within time, not coeternal with the Father, and that He was subordinate to Him.

The flourishing of various Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian heresies throughout Church history is a testimony to how much latitude in interpretation the Scriptural witness leaves.

“how there are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and still One” —

It’s there… Barring comparisons with full intimacy as referred to in Scriptures, that’s Not easily paralleled to our Earthly relationships - again, it is…
e.g. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

…Jesus would have never gone on and on with One - were that to be non-understandable…

For surely, after Jesus Ascended to His Father in Heaven and God’s Holy Spirit entered into the Apostles in a special manner at Pentecost … THEY were filled with Understanding (One of the Gifts of God’s Holy Spirit)…

Let’s consider more…

ONE? Suggests an (almost?) congruity… An (almost?) Same-Same… As in the Epitome of Father and Son. In this case - of Divine Spiritual Beings. We can sense some differences and similarities of the Divine - with that of us current mortal beings conditions here on Earth …

Are there differences? As In: for example: The Father sent the Son. The Son did not send the Father?

We are called to align our will - Mind, Heart and Soul - with the Will of God… Which could be realized as possessing the same Spirit whilst still retaining our personhood . our individuality

JESUS in Heaven before His Incarnation? The WORD of God! Of God… God’s WORD… How do we realize that? My word! Can we compare that with the essences of our very Speech?

JESUS? Often speaks of His Father in a manner reflecting their Sameness (Oneness) as well as Their individualnesses as Persons… “The Words I speak are not my own. They are from the Father!”

One? Is Union… Together… Intimately… Spiritually… Similarnesses - Connected Together by God’s Holy Spirit… The Spiritual Comm-Union of Saints… .

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