Unique question - on virgin birth, the trinity and genesis 6


#1

I was … involved with a cult recently and was almost idoctrinated into their teachings

But now, in order to cure my mind of their putrid teachings (which literally, heresy poisons the mind), ive been diving into Apologetics and researching theology, etc.

I’m not sure how to form this question, so ill dive into the basic teachings of it.

Bare in mind, the cult is quite unique, and its not well known yet so there’s so its a bit of a hunt to find answers. And I’m no scholar.

Basically in Genesis 6 it mentions Sons of God who procreate with women. They interpret this to mean Angels, but Angels have NO physical form, so thus, these women conceived in the same way as the Virgin Mary did with the Holy Spirit

But you see, they interpret the Holy Spirit to be just a Angel of God. There is no such thing as the Trinity. So thus Jesus is the Son of God, in the same way these Angels were.

So the virgin birth becomes nothing unique, and Jesus “taking on Human form, being in the likeness of God” is nothing more than an Angel coming down from Heaven.

Because they also state that God at the beginning in Genesis said to the other Holy Spirits, lets make man in our own image, thus angels were made before all creation.

This twists my mind, I’m not sure how to argue back against this, though i reject everything obviously. It makes me sick and also… i have mental health problems now, but these teachings keep surfacing in my mind taunting me and sometimes I’m scared that i may have left the true Church of God - then i come back to my senses that its just a cult.

Please help. Thanks guys…


#2

Genesis was written during the Babylonian exile and we can read the text in light of the possibility of including more than one nation of people… The sons of god “the Jews” and sons of men “Babylonians”


#3

Omg! Really? Thank you! I didnt know that!


#4

Even before I learned this fact recently. Following Adam and Eve, their is nothing not to suggest that they were the only human beings on the earth, in fact the context suggests otherwise.


#5

“The Book of Enoch,” which is a very real work, and which is still accepted as canon by the Ethiopian Coptic Church. You can find the full text of the book of Enoch easily enough, and should be able to find the specific language quoted in Jude and sort-of-quoted in II Peter.

There is a quite a bit in the Book of Enoch that appears to have influenced the early church. Neither Jude nor Peter reject it as heresy, but the early church councils (outside of Ethiopia) did not accept it as canon, either. On the whole, it would seem that Jude and Peter accept the Book of Enoch’s reading of Genesis 6, which means that they probably believed that fallen angels had intercourse with human women and produced biological offspring that were destroyed in the Flood and whose spirits have been kept imprisoned awaiting a day of judgement.

Now for the real answer to help you, You need to get to a priest who will hear your confession absolve you and you will be in a state of grace. Demons torment but God brings peace. I am happy you left this cult and are on the road to recovery seek God and pray.


#6

So your saying they believed it’s possible for a Demon, a spirit to have intercourse and offspring with a human?

And thank you, i have seen a Priest… i try to go weekly to confession… its funny, did you know during Reconciliation you receive a minor exorcism? I had to recieve a special absolution for being in a cult…

Oh but is the Book of Enoch not included in the Catholic Bible? Is it accepted by the Church though? I know St Clements letters weren’t included but are still highly regarded…


#7

Yeah, that makes sense. I always knew it wouldnt be literal. Thank you for your reply :]


#8

Angel Christology is a form of Gnosticism.

Haydock Commentary on Genesis 1:26

Ver. 26. Let us make man to our image.

This image of God in man, is not in the body, but in the soul; which is a spiritual substance, endued with understanding and free-will. God speaketh here in the plural number, to insinuate the plurality of persons in the Deity. Ch.

— Some of the ancient Jews maintained that God here addressed his council, the Angels; but is it probable that he should communicate to them the title of Creator, and a perfect similitude with himself? C.

— Man is possessed of many prerogatives above all other creatures of this visible world: his soul gives him a sort of equality with the Angels; and though his body be taken from the earth, like the brutes, yet even here the beautiful construction, the head erect and looking towards heaven, &c. makes S. Aug. observe, an air of majesty in the human body, which raises man above all terrestrial animals, and brings him in some measure near to the Divinity. As Jesus assumed our human nature, we may assert, that we bear a resemblance to God both in soul and body. Tertullian (de Resur. 5.) says, “Thus that slime, putting on already the image of Christ, who would come in the flesh, was not only the work of God, but also a pledge.” H. See S. Bern. on Ps. xcix. W.


#9

“Sons of God” were the righteous line of Seth, rather than supernatural beings; the “women” were, the “hites and tites”, or specifically the off spring of Cain.


#10

Angels were created, God existed, and Jesus (the Father, and the Holy Spirit) are the three persons of one God…we see this in Genesis one, where the Father created through the Word (the Son) by the utterances, “Let there be…”, and the Spirit was on the face of the waters.

The first chapter of John’s Gospel testifies that from eternity the Word was with the Father, and the Word was God…not an angel…and through the virgin birth the Word was incarnate and made man.


#11

Unfortunately, this is not a new view. It is even included in the footnotes of Genesis 6 in some Bibles. It was not, however the interpretation of the Jewish scriptures at the time of Christ and is not consistent with he rest of the book of Genesis, let alone the rest of the Pentateuch. It seems to have emerged into prominence amongst the embellishments upon basic Biblical stories during the Middle Ages. If you take the phrase “sons of God” and look at it in the light of the entire Pentateuch or even just the book of Genesis, the phrase actually refers to the faithful line of Adam and Eve, specifically later in the context of the lineage of Seth. So, Genesis 6 speaks of the sons of Seth impregnating the daughters of those outside of their lineage, that is, either the line of Cain or of other men and women of the time (yes there were people other than the line of Adam and Eve as they are mentioned In passing in the description of Cain’s exile)

This is pretty much what the Coptic Churches said when they broke away at the Council of Chalcedon. I don’t have the canons of the council on hand at the moment, but they can be found online.

This actually seems like most of the Christological heresies of the first four centuries were thrown into a blender. I am seeing at least four distinct ones, but I can’t quite remember the names at the moment. A good starting point which would sum up the doctrine of Christ’s person and nature within the context of the Trinity would be the canons of the Council of Nicea and the Tome of Leo, St. Pope Leo I’s definitive letter on the nature of Christ.


#12

Hi, there is different schools of thought and I would not waste time trying to figure it out< but the first encounter with a fallen angel is satan and he appeared as a serpent/snake??? so angels can even appear as angels of light and take on many forms, sooo who knows.
Many have tried to put their own interpretation on the narrative and at present I can’t think of a good argument for any of them.
No Enoch is not in the Bible but it is referenced by Jude who took it as gospel seeing he quoted from it so at least one of the first fathers of the church took it to be inspired by God.
If the bible is the inspired word of God then why did God allow Jude to reference Enoch?
I’m very happy for you in your confession and I hope it is the start of an amazing journey were you will live the will of God and contemplate his attributes and discover his nature.


#13

This is arguible. Tradition states that it was Moses, the prophet, who wrote the Pentateuch


#14

Thank you, I knew after writing this that I should have added that there are many views on when and who wrote the book. What is important for the OP is to understand that the idea of angels is not to be eluded to some kind of wierd cult of super beings.


#15

The correct understanding of Genesis 6 is simple.

Sons of God are the descendants of Seth, whereas the sons of man are the descendants of Cain. This means the sons of those who were faithful to God (sethites) started falling in sin and mixing with the line of cainites.

Remember that it was in the line of Cain that polygamy started. And this is what is happening in this passage: the sons of Seth started taking women as they seemed fit. And these fallen ones also began to praise themselves instead of praising God (“mighty men”, “men of renown” etc.

There is a pattern in the whole Salvation History regarding the “sons of God” X “sons of the serpent” (sons of men). But since the books were written in different ages, terminology changed (although the meanings are the same)


#16

amazing explaination, are you a Jew?


#17

Thank you.

I’m a Catholic trained in ancient jewish culture.


#18

Luke 3:35 concludes the genealogy of Jesus with

the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

“The son of god” can be used in a lot of ways. St Luke here essentially tells us everyone is a son of God, since we are all sons and daughters of Adam. That is different from how we use the term, to describe the divne nature of Jesus. We do not know what was meant in Genesis, hence the speculation.

We do know “This is my beloved Son” at the baptism of Jesus echoes at every baptism, according to Francis and JP2. You know who you are, who your parents are, and you know you are God’s beloved child. There is no need to pursue stories of other ethereal creatures when you have the Creator testifying to your birth.


#19

First off, angels are nothing but spirits. They can take on forms that seem material, but they aren’t real. So obviously, an immaterial being without the powers of the Creator cannot actually have a child of his own flesh and blood. He doesn’t have flesh and blood.

So the ancient theory was that, if this did ever happen, the fallen angel was just stealing reproductive material from actual human men and women, and then pretending to have sex and reproduce. If you want to get all sci-fi about it, you can also theorize the fallen angel taking it back to his genetics lab and doing a little artificial insemination or even genetic engineering. Or you can get all dark and assume that a demon possessed a real man and made him have sex.

Either way, any resulting kids would be of 100% human descent.

This theory seems to have been appealing in the ancient Near East, mostly because Babylon had a myth that seven godlike sages came down from the gods and taught humans the arts of civilization, like makeup, astrology, and poisoning people. (Well, there’s more to it than that, but those are the ones that crack me up.) These sages had kids with humans, who were supposedly people with godlike or heroic superpowers, and who turned into some kind of underworld-dwelling vampiric zombies or hungry ghosts after they died.

So it is possible that the Bible is teaching that these super-duper pagan heroes were actually allied with the forces of evil, and that their vaunted “arts” were all worthless.

The other ancient interpretation, which is less exciting, is the sons of Seth/sons of Cain thing. But again, it could be tying into the legend, by saying that the seven sages weren’t from heaven or from gods, but rather were just Cain’s kids from down the road.

Either way, it’s pretty clear that all these guys were supposed to have been killed off by the Flood, so they are not a factor in life today.


#20

As for Jesus being just an angel or a half-angel, or just some teacher and prophet, or anything but actual God and the incarnate Son of the Father, St. Paul talks about that in Hebrews 1:

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets.
But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,
Whom He appointed the heir of all things –
through Whom also He created the world.

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature,
and He upholds the universe by the Word of His power.
After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

So He became as much superior to the angels
as the Name He has inherited is superior to theirs.

For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

Or again, “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son”?

And again, when he brings the Firstborn into the world, He says, “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

And He says of the angels, "He makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire.”


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