Unity??

From a Catholic on another thread:

Without an authority you end up with a very divided body.

romancatholicwomenpriests.org/

romancatholicsforobama.com/

catholicsforobama.blogspot.com/

jewishjournal.com/thegodblog/item/catholic_priest_comes_out_supports_gay_marriage_20081008/

catholicsforchoice.org/

condoms4life.org/

What unity has the teaching authority really brought for RCs?

Thanks,
Tim

Off the top of my head, I would say that some of these groups are simply NOT following what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

The lack of unity is seen in their lack of obedience.

All of those listed are NOT in union with The Catholic Church, or in other words NOT part of the Catholic Church. They broke unity with, they do not break the unity of the Catholic Church!

Timmy makes a good and simple point: the simple presence of legitimate authority does not prevent heresy or division. Therefore, the establishment of unity is a good but not great argument for the authority of the Magisterium. We should, in general, focus on our other, much stronger arguments from the tradition of the early church and the Bible itself.

My question to you, Timmy, is why you’re starting a new thread about this instead of just pointing it out to your conversational partner?

Please be more careful and precise in your sweeping generalizations. Supporting Obama in the election does not break communion with the Catholic Church.

My question to you, Timmy, is why you’re starting a new thread about this instead of just pointing it out to your conversational partner?

I wasn’t in a conversation there. I was skimming the thread and the sentence jumped out at me as something RCs always say. The thread is pages long and has a different subject.

All of those listed are NOT in union with The Catholic Church, or in other words NOT part of the Catholic Church

Yet many, if not all, are in communion with the RCC on Sunday’s mass.

If they are not in unity, but are in communion; then the true church is invisible as protestants claim?? :wink:

Timmy makes a good and simple point: the simple presence of legitimate authority does not prevent heresy or division.

Thanks. I believe I make nothing but good points :wink: :slight_smile:

Off the top of my head, I would say that some of these groups are simply NOT following what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

Many, think they are. They approach what the you regard as infallible teaching (the magisterium) and come away thinking they are good RCs.

In the same way many protestants approach the infallible Bible and come away with different opinions.

Thanks for the replies,
Tim

Please be more careful and precise in your sweeping generalizations. Supporting Obama in the election does not break communion with the Catholic Church

drudge.com/archive/114920/priest-no-communion-obama-voters

Priest: No Communion for Obama Voters
A Catholic priest in South Carolina told parishioners they should abstain from Communion if they voted for Barack Obama. “Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil,” Rev. Jay Scott Newman said in a letter.

They convince themselves that they are good Catholics, because they don’t want to see the truth, which stems from the Bible and is outlined in the catechism. We have to learn to follow God, and not ourselves.

Some of those listed have, by their actions, excommunicated themselves.
However, it is unlikely that the Jewish group was ever in communion with the Church.

However, it is unlikely that the Jewish group was ever in communion with the Church

The link is a story about a priest in favor of “gay marriage”.

And that same Catholic priest was appropriately corrected by his bishop for his error.

He would have been correct if he had said instead: “That they should consider abstaining from Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because he supports abortion.”

I think this thread is an excellent example of why the grave sins of apostasy and scandal are so dangerous and harmful to the faithful.

TimmyZ, I understand that are somewhat anti-Catholic, but I am sure that you aware of certain ministers or lay people who are not faithful to the teachings of your denomination. That is the same with this here. There are many people who identify themselves as Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal or whatever who certainly do not live or act like they are. That is the case with the groups you mentioned. All those groups are expressing ideas that even you know are contrary to what the Catholic teaches. Some of these groups have even been excommunicated.

Despite all of this, the unity of the Catholic Church is not broken. In the long history of the Catholic Church, there have been many groups within the Church that have embraced incorrect teachings or beliefs. These groups are no different.

TimmyZ, I understand that are somewhat anti-Catholic,

Does disagreement on certain issues and practices make you anti?

I disagree with RC justification, their icons/idols, typical practice, sacramentalism, elevation of saints too much, the politically correct stuff out of the Vatican angers me (seeing a Christian minister kiss the quran…), etc…

Yet I practice much of RC social teaching, a RC nurse taught my wife and I natural family planning, I find too many RC arguments compelling, I regularly watch EWTN, Chesterton is a favorite author of mine, I am currently reading St. Augustine’s City of God and Benedict’s Jesus of Nazerath, etc…

All those groups are expressing ideas that even you know are contrary to what the Catholic teaches.

As I said above, these groups above all believe they are good RCs. There is a “infallible teaching authority” without unity.

A major RC argument against Sola Scriptura is the many divisions of protestantism (“we have 50,000 denominations…”). I have heard it ad infinitum.** Can we end that argument now with this thread?** You have your perfect authority (the magesterium) with division and so do we (the Bible).

Despite all of this, the unity of the Catholic Church is not broken. In the long history of the Catholic Church, there have been many groups within the Church that have embraced incorrect teachings or beliefs. These groups are no different.

I will take clarity and division over fake unity every day of the week!

Perhaps the many divisions of protestantism is something to be proud of. My minister has the courage to correct or remove pro abortion people. They may then start a new church, but God can judge that in the end.

This is a major greivance I have with the RCC. It seems to be cowardice that the Vatican does nothing about scandulous and obvious dissent within. For example: Did the Pope or his handlers really not know Rudy Guliani or Nancy Pelosi’s abortion views when he handed them communion?

Thanks for the reply,
Tim

These are all examples of Protestants. Catholics have no divisions. If one disagrees with dogma and doctrine they enter into grave sin or automatically excommunicate themselves or both. It is a grave sin against unity for a Catholic to make a public challenge to Catholic teachings. Even non ex-cathedra teachings must be accepted as believed to be true. Insubordination to God’s representatives and the teaching authority of The Catholic Church are simply forbidden. Not even scholarly theologians can openly comment against a church teaching once it has been forwarded as “believed to be true” without committing grave sin and losing communion with The Body of Christ.

There are no divisions within the Catholic Church. Those that call themselves Catholic while remaining in grave sin without repenting calumnize The Church and worsen their condemnation.

James

Please more careful. Voting for a Democrat in general or Obama in particular does not make one a Protestant.

Catholics can be Republicans or Democrats or any number of other political parties. Catholics can and do have political divisions.

I think it would help to acknowledge that Catholics are united on the essentials of faith, while at the same time there is certainly diversity at the same time (different Catholic Rites, e.g.).

You are only focusing on one link of the many which are ALL anti-Catholic. These are “in your face” Protestants who call themselves Catholics. This is in fact a contagion in the USA and the religious orders and true catholics call these kinds of people Protestant-Catholics. They protest against Catholic teaching and think they can use a consensus and democratic process to change the church internally. Truth is not defined by a majority rule sort of system - this was what the Protestants tried to do and failed miserably.

Catholics are at liberty to have different political philosophies and to be members of parties that do not have objectively evil political platforms and objectives even if they do in fact have those in practise. But Catholics are not permitted to support individuals or organizations who will pay them blood-money for their vote. There is NO way any informed Catholic could morally support Obama under ANY circumstances. He was an avowed anti-life pro-abortion candidate who is hell set against Catholic teaching and had an objective to undo 30 years of pro-life progress hard won by true Catholics. To vote for Obama was to vote for an intensification of abortion in the USA and to bring in new judges who would guarantee that there would be no way to over turn him for at least 30 more years. There is NOTHING positive that this man could do in the areas of his stated social reformation that offsets the death of innocents that is his publicly stated objective. Everyone knew that one of the things he promised as a first step was to put in place new legislation to greatly expand abortion on demand (FOCA bill) and overturn all state’s rights to legislate it at the local level. He had already in the middle of a massive recession given hundreds of billions to the Mexicans to abort their children - bravo - a brilliant new immigration policy - kill em before the lil tykes grow up and can run over here and get on the public doll. That unfortunately runs counter to other Democratic party plans to expand the “gimme some too” crowd by naturalizing illegals and giving them the right to vote (as Democrats of course) and so I expect him to play to both sides and pander by showing a political concession to put the money into his cronies pockets. Oooops…

It looks pretty clear to me that any informed Catholic voting Obama automatically excommunicated himself for supporting the expansion of pro-abortion legislation in exchange for the illusion of personal financial gain.

James

No, I considered each link individually, thank you. DId you?

Thank you for clarifying. Fortunately your clarity is not determinative of who’s excommunicated.

Why play these parachocial semantic games?

Let me clarify for you. It was the 53% or so of people calling themselves “Catholics” who voted against God and His Church who decided that Obama, the West’s most pro-death leader ever before seen in all of the free world history was to be their new secular messiah. As a group it was rogue “out of camp/church” Catholics who put rabidly pro-death Obama in the white house.

If Catholics had voted their catechism and their moral teaching Obama would have not been elected. Of that 53% of Catholics voting Obama I would assume that at least 50%-60% were too ignorant and poorly educated on the man’s pro-death stance and their own Catholic catechism to do anything more informed than just blindly pull the lever marked “democrat”. So that means around 40% of those 53% made an informed and educated conscious decision to reject Catholic teaching and put an abortionist in the White House. Assuming these have not already excommunicated themselves in other ways that means that millions of adult Catholics voted to excommunicate themselves and choose to reject their Church and God.

Did you vote Obama? Those who did know who they are and a secret ballot is not going to save them from God’s judgement and for sharing in personal culpability for abortions for not resisting this evil practice.

Sorry - I’m not pulling any punches here…

James

Perhaps. Unfortunately (and lamentably and scandalously) that’s not what he said and not what was picked up by the national media.

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