Universal Indult...April 7????


#1

catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6268

Vatican City, March 17, 2006 (CNA) - According to Vatican sources, Pope Benedict XVI has scheduled an unplanned meeting with the presidents of the different Vatican dicasteries, at which he will discuss reforms of the Curia and relations with the Saint Pius X, Lefebvrist schism.

The extraordinary April 7th meeting announcement comes after an ordinary meeting which took place last month, at which the Holy Father asked the dicastery heads about universal approval of the Missal of St. Pius V, the rite which was in force prior to Vatican II.

During this unusual second meeting, the Pontiff is expected to solicit opinions about what to do with the Missal of St. Pius V and about a possible canonical formula for re-incorporating the followers of the schismatic Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre into the Church.

The reorganization of the Roman Curia, which has already begun with the folding of four dicasteries into two, announced last weekend, is also expected to be discussed.

According to Vatican sources, the issue of reorganization of the Curia might also be discussed during the consistory that Pope has convened for March 23 and 24.

Does anybody think the universal indult will be granted?


#2

I hope so and i will pray for it. It is just time to bring them back home.


#3

[quote=SummaTheo]catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6268

Does anybody think the universal indult will be granted?
[/quote]

I also hope so, and hope it happens soon! :thumbsup:


#4

As much as I would love to see this happen, what is the point of this poll?


#5

I just don’t see how this can happen. Frist, it can’t be a universal indult becuase an indult is;

indult |in?d?lt|
a license granted by the pope authorizing an act that the common law of the Church does not sanction.

So, if an indult is a license to act contrary to the law of the Church, then a universal one would constitute an end to the law.

Also I highly doubt that the Pope will step on the feet of every single bishop in the world.

Also, pastorally speaking, not every parish will want to switch from the current Mass to the old one. I highly doubt that it would anything but a very small minority who would what to switch. But with a “universal” indult it would not matter what the parish would want, it would be up to the individual priest.

Given this fact, I could seem some priests being let go by their bishops if they insisted on celebrating the old Mass but where in parishes that wanted the current Mass.

Also what about the fact that in most places in the world today I can walk into a Roman Catholic Church and know pretty much what is going to go on.

Then there is the fact, as I mentioned in another thread, that Latin is no longer required at some seminaries.

Maybe this is heading the other way. Maybe after this discussion the rather limited indult that exists will be removed. Ever think of that?

And one last thing, “universal” is a relative term as it will not be “universal” to the whole Church, just the Latin Church.


#6

I don’t understand the idea of a unioveral indult. The Bishop still has the ultimate authority in his diocese and any further tinkering would erode his authority. Pope Benedict is a big supporter of collegiality so I don’t think he would do that.

Besides if it was totally left up to each individual priest the results could very well be anarchy. An even worse situation than exists now. What I can envision however is a system where the Traditional mass may be offered on a trial basis in different parishes in order to gauge the reaction, or maybe require that each parish celebrate a Solemn High Mass, Traditional, once a month or something like that, I think that could very well be the direction they are heading in.


#7

See:
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=104346


#8

I think that a universal Indult is a very bad idea, for this reason:

If every Priest could celebrate the Tridentine Mass without permission, there would be the danger of individual Priests creating their own hybrid rites, somewhere along the lines of what is currently seen in the Novus Ordo with SOME Priests. For example, changing the words of fixed prayers, changing liturgical actions, liturgical dancers(!), etc.

The Tridentine Rite is so beautiful, that it has to be done EXACTLY according to the rubrics, which means no Communion in the hand, the Priest wearing a Biretta, no lay readers, and no Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion!

So in my opinion, a Priest who wants to say the Tridentine Rite should be able to do so, but he should first be able to demonstrate that he knows how to celebrate that Rite of Mass properly, according to the rubrics.

Also, a Priest who wants to say the Tridentine Mass should be able to demonstrate that he does not support schism, and that he thinks that the Novus Ordo Mass is VALID(with proper matter, form, and intent, of course).

In closing, I want to say that I do indeed want the celebration of the Tridentine Rite to be widespread. I just want it done properly, with no modernist innovations.


#9

April 7th is my birthday! :slight_smile:


#10

In the first place, no, I don’t think that a universal indult for the celebration of the '62 Roman Missal will be promulgated on 7 April. I do believe that it is fairly likely that the current restrictions on that rite will be loosened to an extent at some point, just not this soon. (Although I’d love to be wrong.)

That said…

Also what about the fact that in most places in the world today I can walk into a Roman Catholic Church and know pretty much what is going to go on.

Surely this is true of the '62 Mass as well? Or do you mean that you understand the language? If that is the case, then your statement should have been “most places in the world today** where English is spoken.**”

Then there is the fact, as I mentioned in another thread, that Latin is no longer required at some seminaries.

This may well be true, but I believe that it is in violation of current disciplinary norms.

Maybe this is heading the other way. Maybe after this discussion the rather limited indult that exists will be removed. Ever think of that?

Possible, I suppose. I think that more people would start to attend S.S.P.X. Masses, unless that too is formally proclaimed as illicit at the same time. Again, anything is possible, but I think this scenario is highly unlikely. Do you think it’s what will (or should) happen?


#11

No I am not speaking of language here. The actual form of the '62 Missal differs from the form of the Current Mass as do the prayers. I can walk into a Mass said in Spanish and I know what is happening, what will happen, and what is being said as I know the English. I do not prefer the old Mass and do not know it. With a “universal” indult I could walk into a Church and might not know the Mass that the priest chose to say there.

This may well be true, but I believe that it is in violation of current disciplinary norms.

I am not aware of any such thing. But then I don’t know it all. I am aware of the philosophy requirements to get into a seminary as layed out by Rome. But then a seminary can accept candidates who have the philosophy but lack a bachelors degree.

I am also aware of the seminary I will be attending that Latin is not requried as I have been told this by my brothers but then, they could be wrong.

Possible, I suppose. I think that more people would start to attend S.S.P.X. Masses, unless that too is formally proclaimed as illicit at the same time. Again, anything is possible, but I think this scenario is highly unlikely. Do you think it’s what will (or should) happen?[/font]

Explain how that could be. All it would take is for the Holy Father to take away the current indult allowing the use of the old Mass at the discretion of the local ordinary.

I don’t think it is going to happen but it is a plausable as all the other rumors flying around.


#12

I heard from a priest that it is expected Pope Benedict will release an indult for any priest to celebrate the Tridentine rite, but only for private masses.


#13

David,

I take your point about the general structure of the Masses being different, but don’t agree that it’s a good or sufficient reason to restrict the use of one or another. Of course, a strict application of this principle would suppress the use of the Eastern liturgies, and I believe that very few people would be in favor of doing that. (Although the idea has had some adherents historically, as Fr Benson alludes to in his “Lord of the World.”)

If (and this is a very big “if”) the '62 Mass were to become as popular as the '70 Mass then it would be necessary for Latin Catholics to become familiar with two different rites of Mass. Some people might not like this, but it’s really just the situation we have had since '88 on a much larger scale. I’m sorry that you are opposed to the idea, but the decision is not yours, no more than it is mine (or anyone else’s besides the Holy Father). Do you think that the '88 indult should be rescinded entirely?

Realistically, while I would like to see the '62 rite more generally available, I very much doubt that we’ll ever see anything close to a '62 Mass in every parish. I can’t see leaving the choice to the celebrant of a particular Mass, willy-nilly, in any case. Some sort of system would have to be organized by the local ordinary, but hopefully on a more robust scale than is found in most U.S. dioceses at the present time. Also, I would hope that we saw some of the pre-Conciliar liturgical life in its fullness, and not just the Mass. Sunday Vespers (which is hardly available anywhere, in any rite) would be a good place to start.

The educational requirements for seminaries are laid out in the Apostolic Constitution “Sapientia Christiana” of Pope John Paul II, which was promulgated in '79. Section IV.24.2.3 says “A suitable knowledge of the Latin language is required for the Faculties of the sacred sciences, so that the students can understand and use the sources and the documents of the Church.” The document concludes “His Holiness John Paul II, by divine Providence Pope, has ratified, confirmed, and ordered to be published each and every one of these Norms of Application, anything to the contrary notwithstanding.” which is why I believe that the norms are binding. This may not be true in the U.S., or it may only hold true for certain seminaries (which grant the pontifical degrees?)

I agree that it’s possible that the '88 indult will be withdrawn, but I don’t think it’s as plausible as any of the other possibilities. The Holy Father, who himself celebrated the '62 rite at times while still a cardinal, seems sympathetic to those who would like to retain and broaden its use. Moreover, he has received one of the S.S.P.X. bishops, and seems to want to enable their reconciliation, if at all possible. Thus, I would argue that the most likely possibility would be a lessening of the current restrictions. Of course, he will not wish to ride roughshod over the diocesan bishops, but some concessions may well be required. I have no particular revelation of what will happen, but this seems the more likely option.

I’m not sure if you meant to disagree with my assertion that more people would flock to the S.S.P.X. if the indult were rescinded. I stand by that, in any case.


#14

I voted “never.” It seems to me that the bishops of most dioceses have no use for the indult, detest it even, and do not grant it or grant it only under extremely circumscribed conditions. Under modern circumstances, the pope will not be willing to force the universal indult when so many bishops are opposed. At least that’s my prediction.


#15

[quote=Anima Christi]I heard from a priest that it is expected Pope Benedict will release an indult for any priest to celebrate the Tridentine rite, but only for private masses.
[/quote]

I believe that is a permission any Latin Rite priest already has. The indult refers to public celebrations of the Mass.


#16

[quote=ByzCath]I just don’t see how this can happen. Frist, it can’t be a universal indult becuase an indult is;

indult |in?d?lt|a license granted by the pope authorizing an act that the common law of the Church does not sanction.

So, if an indult is a license to act contrary to the law of the Church, then a universal one would constitute an end to the law.
[/quote]

I think you are misunderstanding what the term “universal indult” implies in this setting. It would only allow priests to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass privately at-will. Local Ordinaries would still have the authority to decide whether or not each priest could celebrate a schedule TLM in public. The so-called Novus Ordo would still be the normative Mass, so that an indult would still be required.

Also, pastorally speaking, not every parish will want to switch from the current Mass to the old one. I highly doubt that it would anything but a very small minority who would what to switch. But with a “universal” indult it would not matter what the parish would want, it would be up to the individual priest.

Again, this is not what is meant by “universal indult.”

Given this fact, I could seem some priests being let go by their bishops if they insisted on celebrating the old Mass but where in parishes that wanted the current Mass.

See Previous Answer

Also what about the fact that in most places in the world today I can walk into a Roman Catholic Church and know pretty much what is going to go on.

Just because most Catholics have been “dumbed-down” by their bishops and liturgists over the past 40 years is no excuse to forbid the celebration of the TLM to those priests and faithful who want it.

Then there is the fact, as I mentioned in another thread, that Latin is no longer required at some seminaries.

Against the wishes of several popes and current Church discipline.

Maybe this is heading the other way. Maybe after this discussion the rather limited indult that exists will be removed. Ever think of that?

I would assume that you’ve never read the writings of Pope Benedict XVI concerning the Traditional Latin Mass. There is a greater chance of him allowing female priests than of the Holy Father revoking the current Ecclesia Dei indult.

And one last thing, “universal” is a relative term as it will not be “universal” to the whole Church, just the Latin Church.

This may or may not be true, but I don’t know why an Eastern Rite priest would want to celebrate the TLM in his parish.


#17

I think you are misunderstanding what the term “universal indult” implies in this setting. It would only allow priests to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass privately at-will. Local Ordinaries would still have the authority to decide whether or not each priest could celebrate a schedule TLM in public. The so-called Novus Ordo would still be the normative Mass, so that an indult would still be required.

No local ordinaries would not have power over a priest. The universal indult would allow a priest to say the 1962 missal whenever he wants.


#18

[quote=muledog]I think you are misunderstanding what the term “universal indult” implies in this setting. It would only allow priests to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass privately at-will. Local Ordinaries would still have the authority to decide whether or not each priest could celebrate a schedule TLM in public. The so-called Novus Ordo would still be the normative Mass, so that an indult would still be required.

[/quote]

No I am not misunderstanding, see the reply above this one from SummaTheo. When the Traditional (EDIT) Latin crowd say “universal indult” they mean just what he said above.

I do not think there is any restrictions as to what Mass a priest says privately today, as how would the bishop know.

Just because most Catholics have been “dumbed-down” by their bishops and liturgists over the past 40 years is no excuse to forbid the celebration of the TLM to those priests and faithful who want it.

This is just an insult to all Catholics who favor the current Mass of the Church. I will not respond further to this insult.

Against the wishes of several popes and current Church discipline.

Yes it is a sad thing. I will be using what few electives I have to get Latin.

I would assume that you’ve never read the writings of Pope Benedict XVI concerning the Traditional Latin Mass. There is a greater chance of him allowing female priests than of the Holy Father revoking the current Ecclesia Dei indult.

Just as there is in him granting the “universal indult” that is being looked for or his revoking the current Mass.

This may or may not be true, but I don’t know why an Eastern Rite priest would want to celebrate the TLM in his parish.

It is not true and that you do not know that is troubling. The TLM is the old Mass, the old Eucharistic Rite, of the Latin Church. Byzantine priests never celebrated it nor do they ever celebrate the current Mass. There may be an occasional concelebration of it but that is not allowed in the old Mass.


#19

[quote=SummaTheo]No local ordinaries would not have power over a priest. The universal indult would allow a priest to say the 1962 missal whenever he wants.
[/quote]

And here lies the biggest reason why it will not occur.

A priest swears to obedience to his bishop and recieves his faculties to celebrate the Mass from the bishop. There is no way to remove the priest from the power of the local ordinary unless the pope is going to take on all priests and eliminate all bishops.


#20

[quote=ByzCath]And here lies the biggest reason why it will not occur.

A priest swears to obedience to his bishop and recieves his faculties to celebrate the Mass from the bishop. There is no way to remove the priest from the power of the local ordinary unless the pope is going to take on all priests and eliminate all bishops.

[/quote]

When I meant by power, I didn’t mean he doesn’t have to answer to him. He still does. What the universal indult will just allow the 1962 Missal to be said without asking for an indult from the local bishop.


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