Yes. And they could.
Did you ever watch the Passion of the Christ?
Could you speak Aramaic? No.
You had subtitles.
Yes. And they could.
Actually the Epistle and the Gospel were usually and still are usually read in one of two ways. Either they are both read in Latin then re-read in the vernacular or read in Latin and simultaneously in the Vernacular. It was a seldom occurance when these readings were both done only in Latin and most of the time that happened was either at Private Masses:bigyikes: or daily masses where you generally had the same crowd every day, who often knew more about what was going on than the Priest did.
How did this thread happen?
The simple fact of the matter is that to celebrate Mass in Latin, a priest needs to be fluent in the language.
For true (vocal) prayer [and the liturgy is mainly vocal prayer], the mind and voice must be in accord - so the Holy Sacrifice demands more than the empty pronunciation of sounds.
(I studied Latin at home for a few years and I’ve now completed one year of my Bachelor of Arts degree majoring in Latin, and I can really only now read the ordinary, prayers and scriptures of the Mass. Just. So I can see that it really does take years.)
We’ve been wandering in the desert for 40 years so, please be patient with us if we seem impatient.
We’re still discerning as whether it is a mirage or a real oasis. The thirst is terrible and the well is sweet and refreashing.
Soon, God, soon.
If majority of our priests doesn’t know Latin, then we are really in trouble. Just think of it, our beloved priests cannot even speak and understand the official language of the Church. I thought Latin is still being taught in seminaries even though the Mass is said in vernacular.
With regards to the laity not being able to understand Latin Mass argument, I think it is every Catholic’s responsibility to study the theology and the language of the TLM. Though not everybody has the opportunity to study in a Catholic school, I believe we can compensate it by organizing lectures regarding the theology behind the TLM so that many people will appreciate it. Even though TLM has been around for centuries, it will be NEW to our generation, hence, our beloved bishops are hesitant as they are afraid that they will loose our generation because we do not understand the language nor the theology behind TLM.
This generation has the time for everything that is entertaining: movies, sports, tv shows, night outs, ipods, etc. I think this generation should spare some time learning Latin and the TLM.
It will also help if our beloved bishops would make it mandatory for Catholic schools to give Latin courses. Again, think of it, Catholic schools ignorant of the language of the Catholic Church.
With the majority of the world’s Catholics living in poor countries how do you propose they do that?
There are actually a fair amount of TLMs and priests who say them in the third world. Gabon Africa comes to mind specifically. The Institute of Christ the king runs a very successful mission there where plenty of Africans flock to it.
Well 15 years is a gross exaggeration. The military, for example, trains people in foreign languages in a matter of months. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Institute
But regardless, what difference does it make? There are priests now who can say the Mass (NO or TLM) in Latin. In a year there will be more. In two years there will be more still. And so on, and so on. Why is this even considered an issue?
It is not going to be that difficult. If people in such disparate places as the Middle East, Britain, France, Germany, Spain, and Africa back around the 5th century, with all their differing dialects and with much less literacy, could handle going to a universal Latin Mass, so can we. We have a lot more advantages–easy access to written materials, longer life spans, much easier life styles and leisure time, and the ‘rubrics’ already instituted and still known by a fair number of priests.
Not to take away from your main (and very true) point, but early on (like 16th century), parts of the Middle East and Persia could offer Mass in Arabic.
Latin is the language of the Church and, without question, it is the responsibility of every Catholic to know and understand enough Latin to understand the Pauline Mass in Latin and respond appropriately. If this causes them to be able to understand the TLM, then so be it- but not everybody wishes to see the TLM brought back and there is certainly no responsibility upon faithful Catholics to wish that it were. This may be seen as nitpicky, but I think it is an important distinction.
As my four year old learned.
Introduce parts of the Holy Mass in the language of the Church a bit at a time.
It may take a while but it will work.
Start with the Kyrie in Greek and go to the Latin.
You sometimes make it sound like those in the US are not nor have ever been poor. How do you think those on the prairie learned anything.
Here is a help. Pick any person here on CAF and have them contact their priest. Explain that over seas the people are in need of resources to help with this task.
I know that if that call came in to my parish, people would be willing to help. You may even get more than you need.
Those in the USA are truly not self centered Ogres. We are very loving and generous people, especially when you go to our people individually.
They didn’t seem to struggle, throughout the whole history of the Church, with understanding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
This nonsense about people not being able to understand the TLM is just that, absolute nonsense.
If you mean understand what was being said…they didn’t.
Not what I meant,
I was referring to the Mass.
Indeed, and I don’t think that is what thistle was trying to imply. But I think one would also have to take into account, not only materials but time of people (attending classes may not really be high priority for them), literacy and so forth.
Also, I don’t know whether it was really high priority for the people on the US prairie to learn Latin (more so because there were no diologue Masses) They joined themselves to the action of the priest in other ways.
It may not have been a high priority to learn Liturgical Latin, but Latin is the root to many of our words. The Classical education movement is taken from many sources including the standard tests for teachers in the 1800s. Using a Classical Curriculm we learn Latin.
“If you mean understand what was being said…they didn’t.”
From whence dost thou gatherest this bit of information?
I don’t know Thistle about that Thistle. My Grandmother, from Mindanao, never went to school beyond I think 4th or 5th grade, knew the Mass completely in Latin, and knew exactly what was being said and done. . Of course, when she went to school most of the lessons were in Spanish so maybe that helped, I don’t know. My Mom, who likewise didn’t go very far in school not only knew the Mass in Latin but actually taught prayers and devotions to others. During the Japanese occupation of the Philippines many foreign clergy were in fact arrested and imprisoned, the Japanese being concerned with Asia being only for Asians, and my Mom and Aunts along with many others, helped to keep the faith going with novenas clandestine Masses etc and hid Priests as well as other westerners, servicemen etc.
You seem to feel that the poor would not be able to relate to or learn the language. I can tell you from personal; experience that is not true and in fact for you to say so is very insulting and extremely demeaning.
And just so you know, the majority of the worlds Muslims also come from poor countries yet they all manage to learn the Arabic required for their faith. Why do you feel that third world Catholics are less able to do that?