Universal Indult

Well 15 years is a gross exaggeration. The military, for example, trains people in foreign languages in a matter of months. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Institute

But regardless, what difference does it make? There are priests now who can say the Mass (NO or TLM) in Latin. In a year there will be more. In two years there will be more still. And so on, and so on. Why is this even considered an issue?

It is not going to be that difficult. If people in such disparate places as the Middle East, Britain, France, Germany, Spain, and Africa back around the 5th century, with all their differing dialects and with much less literacy, could handle going to a universal Latin Mass, so can we. We have a lot more advantages–easy access to written materials, longer life spans, much easier life styles and leisure time, and the ‘rubrics’ already instituted and still known by a fair number of priests.

:smiley: Not to take away from your main (and very true) point, but early on (like 16th century), parts of the Middle East and Persia could offer Mass in Arabic.

Latin is the language of the Church and, without question, it is the responsibility of every Catholic to know and understand enough Latin to understand the Pauline Mass in Latin and respond appropriately. If this causes them to be able to understand the TLM, then so be it- but not everybody wishes to see the TLM brought back and there is certainly no responsibility upon faithful Catholics to wish that it were. This may be seen as nitpicky, but I think it is an important distinction.

As my four year old learned.
Introduce parts of the Holy Mass in the language of the Church a bit at a time.
It may take a while but it will work.

Start with the Kyrie in Greek and go to the Latin.

You sometimes make it sound like those in the US are not nor have ever been poor. How do you think those on the prairie learned anything.

Here is a help. Pick any person here on CAF and have them contact their priest. Explain that over seas the people are in need of resources to help with this task.
I know that if that call came in to my parish, people would be willing to help. You may even get more than you need.

Those in the USA are truly not self centered Ogres. We are very loving and generous people, especially when you go to our people individually.

They didn’t seem to struggle, throughout the whole history of the Church, with understanding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

This nonsense about people not being able to understand the TLM is just that, absolute nonsense.

If you mean understand what was being said…they didn’t.

Not what I meant,

I was referring to the Mass.

Indeed, and I don’t think that is what thistle was trying to imply. But I think one would also have to take into account, not only materials but time of people (attending classes may not really be high priority for them), literacy and so forth.

Also, I don’t know whether it was really high priority for the people on the US prairie to learn Latin (more so because there were no diologue Masses) They joined themselves to the action of the priest in other ways.

It may not have been a high priority to learn Liturgical Latin, but Latin is the root to many of our words. The Classical education movement is taken from many sources including the standard tests for teachers in the 1800s. Using a Classical Curriculm we learn Latin.

AJV,

“If you mean understand what was being said…they didn’t.”

From whence dost thou gatherest this bit of information?

I don’t know Thistle about that Thistle. My Grandmother, from Mindanao, never went to school beyond I think 4th or 5th grade, knew the Mass completely in Latin, and knew exactly what was being said and done. . Of course, when she went to school most of the lessons were in Spanish so maybe that helped, I don’t know. My Mom, who likewise didn’t go very far in school not only knew the Mass in Latin but actually taught prayers and devotions to others. During the Japanese occupation of the Philippines many foreign clergy were in fact arrested and imprisoned, the Japanese being concerned with Asia being only for Asians, and my Mom and Aunts along with many others, helped to keep the faith going with novenas clandestine Masses etc and hid Priests as well as other westerners, servicemen etc.

You seem to feel that the poor would not be able to relate to or learn the language. I can tell you from personal; experience that is not true and in fact for you to say so is very insulting and extremely demeaning.

And just so you know, the majority of the worlds Muslims also come from poor countries yet they all manage to learn the Arabic required for their faith. Why do you feel that third world Catholics are less able to do that?

Exactly.

I agree. I believe that like everything else, learning a new language takes just one step to get going. All we need at first is to get accostumed and comfortable with the language.

I think the problem is people of this generation are afraid of latin and the TLM, hence, they argue that it is hard to understand, it doesn’t give them the chance to participate, they do not know what is going on, etc. We have lectures or instructions are given before baptism and confirmation so that people will appreciate the sacrament and the signs and symbols, so why can’t we also have lectures and instructions given perhaps in the conference room before a Sunday TLM? For a start, perhaps a priest trained in TLM could give the lectures, after which he could train the laity to give the lectures and the laity can train other laity to give lectures to other parishes, etc. Isn’t this the teaching of Vatican II for the laity to actively participate and help the Church?

I believe as Catholics (especially of the Roman Rite), Latin should be part of our way of life as it is the language of our Church.

Will you stop these stupid comments. You seem to stalk me in these forums. Why don’t you grow up? I’ll put you on my ignore list. That way I don’t have to listen to your drivel.

Much less than the Mass…very few sentences are required for the raka and each raka also repeats a lot from the other and the only other thing is the first sura and the Shahadda. Some of the sentences are not more than 3-4 words.
I also believe because of my personal experience especially what I was taught about the mosque prayers at a time when I did not know Arabic, and regarding my friends when they pray at the mosque that a lot of the time, one can recite away with comprehension, and I don’t think that thats a good thing and I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t advocate that happening

I can see how that would be ideal :smiley: but alas, it did not always work like that even under Bl. Pius IX, who was quite an ultramontane Pope.

Quick prediction…

Permission for the traditional mass may be granted. But, there will be no widespread use of it. The fastest growing parish in my area (yes, with several vocations) is run by a priest who is totally orthodox and sees no need for the traditional mass except as an occasional occurence to teach the history of the Church. It is truly amazing what a devout liturgy of the ordo missae can do for a parish. The devotion and dedication of the parishioners there seems to mirror closely the dedication and devotion of the parishioners at the church that says the indult mass.

It really seems to me that a great parish all starts with a devout and beautiful liturgy whether it be the traditional mass or the current mass. I just don’t foresee even some of the very wonderful bishops (Burke, Bruskewitz, Dolan, Myers, etc) increasing the number of traditional masses within their dioceses. In areas where there are good liturgies there does not seem to be much of a call for the traditional mass except as a nice reminder of our history and tradition.

My 3 cents.

Put me on whatever list you want my friend. You’re the one who constantly brings up nonsense about the inability of Pilipinos and other third world people to learn Latin. I merely point out that it is not the case and has never been the case. You just don’t like that I don’t fit into the little cubbyhole you have created for us poor deprived Pilipinos. Di ba?.

Oh and for those who don’t know, our friend Thistle, an ex pat who lives in the Philippines, thinks he speaks for Pilipinos, because we are too poor, too deprived too backward and too whatever else , that he has to speak up for us. Kind of like a great white father, know what I mean?. Being a native born Pinoy I can tell you he does not and he hates it when I point it out…

I absolutely agree with you, and I’m a person who attended a TLM parish run by the FSSP for 2-1/2 years.

Many people who attend the TLM are not specifically running to it, but away from an abusive NO. That’s the whole reason I began attending. I can assure you that if I had had the benefit of a beautiful, reverent NO Mass with some Latin, incense, chant, etc., I wouldn’t have driven first an hour and then later two hours (when I moved to an even worse parish) each way in order to attend the TLM.

Unfortunately, many of the NO Masses currently celebrated in the U.S. today bear little resemblance to what a NO Mass is supposed to be. In fact, I think that if a newcomer attended a NO Mass celebrated all in Latin they would think they were at a TLM, tha’st how different a proper NO in Latin is from the mess of a liturgy that most of us have every Sunday.

I am all for the universal indult, though. Hopefully it’s release will spur newer/better forms in our liturgy. The Church has got to do better than it’s doing now. :mad:

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