Universalis - no good for LOTH?

Re: the above… the Catholic Culture website advises the following…

“This is not a Catholic web site. It is Anglican. For this reason, we have not reviewed it. However, we have included it in our database because many mistakenly think it is Catholic.”

catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=172

I also came across this post in a LOTH forum…

"*The Universalis website CANNOT be used to pray the Divine Office – they do not use an approved translation. *

*In addition, the owners of Universalis seem to have a rather flippant attitude about liturgical law in this matter. *

*I cannot recommend them and anyone using that site for the text of the Offices, are not using an approved translation. Anyone knowing that and using them anyway, will be doing only a personal devotion and will not be “praying with the Church”. *God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary "

saint-mike.org/apologetics/qa/Answers/Divine_Office/o0405170046.html

Is praying the LOTH using text from Universalis valid Catholic liturgy?

It isn’t. It can be prayed devotionally, but it cannot be liturgically the Divine Office. It doesn’t have the antiphons, for one, readings, or closing prayers, and the translation is not approved. These are major violations of the GILH and the general principles.

While it may not be liturgically correct for a Catholic to recite an (unapproved) Anglican version of the Divine Office, this isn’t to say that said Anglican Office may not be a far better translation of the Psalter. Our American Catholic (ICEL) version is an abomination; it merely happens to be an approved abomination… :rolleyes:

I wonder if the Lord Jesus is concerned about whether the translation is approved or not. Somehow I do not think he is. Personally, even though an Anglican, I frequently use the one volume LOH Christian Prayer for the Divine Office. While I love the format, I find the translation of the Psalms to be horrendous. They are almost impossible to chant and are grammatically clumsy in so many places.

If we want to pray liturgically, then we used the approved translations. If we want to pray using our own preferred translations, that’s fine, but let’s make no pretenses about it being liturgical.

Since I want to pray the Divine Office as a liturgy and not just as private devotion, then I use the approved books, in accordance with liturgical law. I do not care about the quality of the translations. I like the RSV, but where I am, the Grail/NAB/ICEL translation is authorized, so that’s what I use. If you’re British, then use the British edition, not the American.

As far as I’m concerned, the Church has approved the ICEL books, therefore, so do I. The first thing I do is obey, and I refrain from calling the Church’s sacred liturgies “abominations.”

When you say “Anglican” do you mean as in Church of England? Or do you mean the Roman Catholic Church in England?

http://www.universalis.com/100/about.htm

http://www.universalis.com/100/liturgy-structure.htm

http://www.universalis.com/100/aboutus.htm

Could the site at St. Michael’s for Catholic culture be wrong? Because those 3 links tell me that universalis is Catholic. Some of the stuff on the St. Michael site seems to me to be well “off”. And please don’t put me through a series of scrutinies because of it.

Of course the Catholic Sacred Liturgy *in se et per se * is no abomination, but the fact that the American version of the Divine Office (not unlike the Mass) is so atrociously translated (rather, paraphrased) - that is, unfaithful to the truth of the authentic Sacred Liturgy - makes it quite abominable.

[quote=tjmiller]Of course the Catholic Sacred Liturgy *in se et per se * is no abomination, but the fact that the American version of the Divine Office (not unlike the Mass) is so atrociously translated (rather, paraphrased) - that is, unfaithful to the truth of the authentic Sacred Liturgy - makes it quite abominable.
[/quote]

No, it isn’t. The Church has on her authority has approved it for the worship of God in liturgy, as as such, is sacred. Yes, the translations can use improvement, and I eagerly anticipate the upcoming translations. But the present, approved English translations are the prayers of the Church duly promulgated and approved. To call the Church’s official texts–Latin or translations–abominations or abominable is to spit in her face and the face of the sacred liturgy, for those are the words with which the Church offers her highest forms of worship.

When the Church withdraws approval of the present translation, so will I, but never before then.

I honor and respect it as an approved abomination…(of which there are very many in the American Catholic church)

[quote=Archbishop]I wonder if the Lord Jesus is concerned about whether the translation is approved or not. Somehow I do not think he is. Personally, even though an Anglican, I frequently use the one volume LOH Christian Prayer for the Divine Office. While I love the format, I find the translation of the Psalms to be horrendous. They are almost impossible to chant and are grammatically clumsy in so many places.
[/quote]

Yes he is. If the Church is concerned about the method of worship then Christ himself is concerned about it. Jesus is always concerned with obedience - the favorite virtue of the saints.

[quote=tjmiller]I honor and respect it as an approved abomination…(of which there are very many in the American Catholic church)
[/quote]

I beleive that’s an oxymoron. I don’t know if you can honour and respect something you beleive to be an abomination. I don’t mean to put words into your mouth, but did you mean rather that you “begrudgingly accept it as an approved abomination”?

Let it be said that the American translation for LOTH is less of an abomination than are the translations for the prayers of the Mass.

To clarify: A) I honor, respect, and obediently accept the fact of the ICEL LOTH’s ecclesiastical approval. (I still use said vernacular Office when in choir with my Tertiary Community.)

B). Out of devout love for the sanctity and divine truth both of Sacred Scripture and of the Sacred Liturgy, I despise the currently approved American translation of said Liturgy, and prefer to use the official Latin version instead.

This contempt for a despicable translation by no means represents a contempt for the authority which approved it. Many such misguided approvals were made in the postconciliar confusion of the “Silly 'Seventies”. Inundated with a flood of new vernacular liturgical and scriptural texts, the Holy See basically “rubber-stamped” whatever was submitted to it, in implicit trust of the regional episcopal conferences, and for lack of some better alternative. The bishops’ conferences themselves generally rubber-stamped whatever was presented to them, in implicit trust of the liturgical and biblical “experts”,and for lack of some better alternative.

Now they know better.
Under the current authoritative criteria, the ICEL LOTH translation now in use would be cast upon the trash heap, and the “experts” ordered to go back to work from scratch (as has in fact happened with some texts over the past decade).

After 30-40 years of officially approved liturgical garbage (for far worse perpetrations, look no further, for example, than the American Gloria and Credo!), the tide is now slowly turning…

[quote=porthos11]Since I want to pray the Divine Office as a liturgy and not just as private devotion, then I use the approved books, in accordance with liturgical law.
[/quote]

Does anyone know – is the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary approved and liturgical?

The American version of the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, published in 1988 by the Catholic Book Publishing Company is approved by* Imprimatur * and Nihil Obstat.

I’m not sure what you mean by “Is it liturgical?” It’s liturgical in the sense that, as noted directly below the above marks of approval, “This Little Office…is excerpted and adapted from the Liturgy of the Hours.”

[quote=buzzcut]Does anyone know – is the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary approved and liturgical?
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I remember reading somewhere that it is indeed both approved and liturgical. Don’t have the source on hand right now though.

The vast majority of posts on this thread have confirmed that Universalis LOTH is not Catholic liturgy. I am only aware of one online LOTH resource that is deemed to be liturgically valid …

liturgyhours.org/

Unfortunately the english version used in the above site uses only the USA version of the LOTH.

I wondered if anyone knew of a UK online version of the LOTH which is also liturgically correct?

Also - if one prays the LOTH alone is still considred as Liturgy?

DD

It is, although the efficacy is somewhat different depending on the person praying. If the person praying is a priest, then he is offering the Office in the name of the whole Church, as her ordained representative. This is because the Liturgy of the Hours is the Prayer of the whole Church, but not all her members can say it due to varying circumstances. So the priests offer them in her name. Diocesan priests and Jesuits normally say the office individually.

Lay people who pray alone are also praying liturgically, because it is their prayer as well, as members of Christ’s faithful, and by praying the prayer of the Church with the mind of the Church, they join in the millions of other priests, religious, and laity praying the same prayer. So even if done alone, the Office retains its public character, and you are joined with the rest of the Church in offering your prayer

Lay people do not pray the Office in the name of the Church though, for that is not something they are ordained to do. Rather, they join with her in her prayer. This makes the Liturgy of the Hours even more important than devotional prayers, such as the Rosary, despite their popularity and power.

This is also why we cannot use sites like Universalis for anything other than personal devotion, and not liturgical prayer. Just as we cannot use unapproved translations for Mass, we cannot use unapproved translations for the Divine Office. Liturgical prayer is always one governed and approved by the Church, LOTH included.

Universalis is good for personal prayer but it is not the Divine Office. The Divine Office is defined by the Church.

Pray it if you wish but if you do so you can not truely say that you are praying the Liturgy of the Hours.

[quote=porthos11]Lay people do not pray the Office in the name of the Church though, for that is not something they are ordained to do. Rather, they join with her in her prayer. This makes the Liturgy of the Hours even more important than devotional prayers, such as the Rosary, despite their popularity and power.

This is also why we cannot use sites like Universalis for anything other than personal devotion, and not liturgical prayer. Just as we cannot use unapproved translations for Mass, we cannot use unapproved translations for the Divine Office. Liturgical prayer is always one governed and approved by the Church, LOTH included.
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THIS was the answer I needed!!! Thank you!!!

Anyone know of a UK online Catholic LOTH?

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