Universalism and Tradition?

Pax Vobiscum,

Is it heresy to hold restitutio in pristinum statum (i.e. restoration to the original condition)?

Pax

Pax tecum!

I think you’ll have to clarify that before we can answer it for you. What exactly do you mean by the “original condition”?

In Christ,
Rand

This was discussed in an encyclical of Pius XII. The error is known as antiquarianism.

There is gradual growth and developement in the life of the Church. Thus, those who seek to restore everything to exactly the way it was in the first few centuries do err. I wouldn’t say it is heresy, just wrong; and it has been condemned by the Church.

Pope Pius XII: "“The desire to restore everything indiscriminately to its ancient condition (antiquarianism) is neither wise nor praiseworthy. It would be wrong, for example, to want the altar restored to its ancient form of table; to want black eliminated from the liturgical colors, and pictures and statues excluded from our churches; to require crucifixes that doe not represent the bitter sufferings of the divine Redeemer.” (Pope Pius XII, Encyclical
Letter “Mediator Dei”)

Notice that what the Pope said “would be wrong” is exactly what has occurred in the Novus Ordo Mass, under the name of Vatican II.

Pax,

I am refering to ‘Universalism’… :o

But those things are not CALLED for in the NO or Vatican II. And are those things listed above wrong in and of themselves? Is a free standing altar (in my church, the altar is free-standing, but it is massive, a huge piece of marble, that was put in place and the Church practically built around it) absolutely wrong and a wall altar absolutely right? To require the crucifix to look one way? Who makes the judgment call, “No, that Crucifix isn’t realistic enough?” Art in the centuries before this had Crucifixes that couldn’t be called realistic, but they were still beautiful.

I think the Pope meant one’s reasoning could be in error, not that these things are in and of themselves errors.

Please return to the topic as proposed by the OP, people. Thank you for your cooperation.

Your preaching to the chior.

[quote=] I think the Pope meant one’s reasoning could be in error, not that these things are in and of themselves errors.
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And maybe John Paul II was only sniffing the Koran. :thumbsup:

Pax Vobiscum,

Could someone please let me know if it is a grave matter to hold the view of Universalism? :frowning:

Pax

Whoops, sorry!

Well, I’m no theologian (though I play one on TV), but I’ll venture an answer: To emphatically state that everyone is saved and no one is in hell would be grave error. To pray that everyone is saved and no one is in hell would be high virtue (I just heard Fr. Benedict Groeschel say last night that St. Teresa de Avila actually prayed for JUDAS!!!).

I think the operative word is “indiscriminately”. To point out that such and such was the practise of the Ancient Church carries some weight. At a very minimum it means that the proposed practise cannot be incompatible with the Church’s values. However it is not in itself decisive. Times change and our understanding develops.
Then there is always the question of whether the Ancient practise has been correctly interpreted. For instance the early Christians seem to have held goods in common, but we don’t know what the exact financial arrangements were. It would be dangerous to impose this on modern people who have no such tradition.

I agree. He said it would be wrong to desire to restore everything indiscrimately to its ancient condition. But then he gives a few examples of what would fall into this category. And, unfortunately, all of these are now found in the Novus Ordo Mass.

Pope Pius XII: ""The desire to restore everything indiscriminately to its ancient condition (antiquarianism) is neither wise nor praiseworthy. It would be wrong, for example, to want the altar restored to its ancient form of table; to want black eliminated from the liturgical colors, and pictures and statues excluded from our churches; to require crucifixes that doe not represent the bitter sufferings of the divine Redeemer." (Pope Pius XII, Encyclical
Letter “Mediator Dei”)

Yes it is. In the True Church.
Origen http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/images/people/origen_small.jpgwould likely be canonized if he did not hold to this belief. Anyway, the Church condemned his teaching on Universalism.
Universalism: a historical survey

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Given unlimited time, God’s purpose will eventually prevail and all souls will be finally, united to Him, never to sin again. The final restoration includes even Satan and the devils. Origen’s scheme conforms to a Platonic pattern of understanding the world as part of a great cycle of the emanation of all things from God and the return of all things to God. Despite the appeal to such texts as 1 Cor. 15: 28 (‘God shall be all in all’ this has always been a favourite universalist text) the final unity of all things with God is more Platonic than biblical in inspiration. The Platonic pattern of emanation and return was widely influential in Greek theology and provided the same kind of general world-view favouring universalism as Darwinian evolution was to provide for some nineteenth-century universalists, In both cases universalism is achieved by seeing both this earthly life and hell as only stages in the soul’s long upward progress towards God

ORIGEN:
So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him “all,” and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is “all in all.” And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be “all in all” (Origen, De Prinicipiis, 3.6.3).

John Paul II, was much influenced by the great Swiss theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar, who was a universalist.
The link here is a Google of John Paul II & universalism, and you get about 400,000 hits.
This could be a really good Thread if it didn’t keep fallin off the tracks.
Poor Jean A. Could use a whip n a chair.

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JPII, Universalism Clues in innuendo:
“Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever “clad in a robe dipped in blood” (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of universal salvation.” (Message Of John Paul II To The Abbess General Of The Order Of The Most Holy Saviour Of St Bridget)

"…with each one Christ has united himself for ever through this mystery. … The [Second Vatican] Council points out this very fact when, speaking of that likeness, it recalls that “man is the only creature on earth that God willed for itself”. Man as “willed” by God, as “chosen” by him from eternity and called, destined for grace and glory-this is “each” man, “the most concrete” man, “the most real”; this is man in all the fullness of the mystery in which he has become a sharer in Jesus Christ, the mystery in which each one of the four thousand million human beings living on our planet has become a sharer from the moment he is conceived beneath the heart of his mother.” (Encyclical Redemptor Hominis 5, 13)

"These words of the Letter to the Ephesians reveal the eternal design of God the Father, his plan of man’s salvation in Christ. It is a universal plan, which concerns all men and women created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen. 1:26). Just as all are included in the creative work of God ‘in the beginning,’ so all are eternally included in the divine plan of salvation, which is to be completely revealed, in the ‘fullness of time,’ with the final coming of Christ. " (Encyclical, Redemptoris Mater 7:1)

"The redemption event brings salvation to all, “for each one is included in the mystery of the redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever through this mystery.” … Just as “by his incarnation the Son of God united himself in some sense with every human being,” so too “we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in the Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God.” God’s plan is “to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth” (Eph 1:10)… It is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for salvation… We know, however, that Jesus came to bring integral salvation, one which embraces the whole person and all mankind, and opens up the wondrous prospect of divine filiation. Why mission? Because to us, as to St. Paul, “this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ” (Eph 3:8). Newness of life in him is the “Good News” for men and women of every age: all are called to it and destined for it.” (Encyclical, Redemptoris Missio 4, 6, 9, 11)

“In proclaiming the Risen Lord, Christians present the One who inaugurates a new era of history and announce to the world the good news of a complete and universal salvation which contains in itself the pledge of a new world in which pain and injustice will give way to joy and beauty. At the beginning of a new millennium marked by a clearer awareness of the universality of salvation and a realization that the Gospel daily needs to be proclaimed anew, the Synodal Assembly raised an appeal that our commitment to mission should not be lessened but rather expanded, through ever more profound missionary cooperation.” (Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation Pastores Gregis)

Ah, the naysayers have been busy, I see! Extremely anxious to dishonor and point fingers of heresy to John Paul II. Wherever you pulled these quotes from, TNT, the quotes failed to present the whole context of his teaching. I would guess you got the idea from notorious websites hell-bent on destroying the Church through false innuendo.

For instance, in *Redemptoris Mater * the opening words address Eph.1:3,

  1. “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” (Eph. 1:3). These words of the Letter to the Ephesians reveal the eternal design of God the Father, his plan of man’s salvation in Christ. It is a universal plan, which concerns all men and women created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen. 1:26).

But if the reader stopped with this portion, he could use it as an opportunity to discredit the Pontiff. One must include the entire paragraph to learn his meaning:

Just as all are included in the creative work of God “in the beginning,” so all are eternally included in the divine plan of salvation, which is to be completely revealed, in the “fullness of time,” with the final coming of Christ. In fact, the God who is the “Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”-these are the next words of the same Letter-“chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace” (Eph. 1:4-7).

He quotes scripture which is God-inspired, stating that ALL are included in God’s plan. But of course we know not ALL accept it. I do not intend to research your other quotes, for I suspect I will find more of the same. It is truly ignoble of you to print this false characterization of John Paul.

TNT:

In NONE of what you’ve presented does the old Holy Father state that everyone WILL be saved. If this is what “traditionalists” view as his denial of hell or affirmation that hell IS empty, then they’re off base. I read from this that the plan or economy of salvation is universal in its offering, not universal in its final effect.

Here’s a good article by Cardinal Dulles:

The Population of Hell

Also, the Novus Ordo Missal gives much more attention to Hell than than the Tridentine Missal which provides almost none at all. See here:

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605fea4.asp

Ah, how about you:
so all are eternally included in the divine plan of salvation**,**

But YOU say:
He quotes scripture which is God-inspired, stating that ALL are included in God’s plan.

So, what happened to ETERNALLY??
And, how did you manage to make OF SALVATION disappear??

Then you say:
But of course we know not ALL accept it.

So what?
JPII covers that also, and plainly disregards it as well in other quotes.

So, my quotes are not out of context unless you believe in doublespeak.

Re:
you got the idea from notorious websites hell-bent on destroying the Church through false innuendo.

I take personal offense at such personal attacks on my motives and the motives of those you know not.
But then, isn’t that the universal mark of liberalism…attack the veracity of the person lest his message be seen too truthful?

Those in Hell WERE a part of that universal salvation. They rejected it, but it made them no less a part of it. The Jews are a part of the plan of salvation, in that it was through them that salvation came. That isn’t to say that those who reject that salvtion will be saved anyway. I see no difficulty in saying that all are eternally included, ie, included from eternity. I’m less worried NOW about those traditionalist charges against JPII than before. You’re essentially saying that the Pope said people could be saved against their own will. I don’t get that at all from reading what you posted.

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