Universe is infinate?


#1

How can God, who is infinite re-create infinate things? I thought that was one of his ‘limitation’ (sorry if I’m offending anyone with the wording). thanks!:shrug:


#2

Who said the universe was infinite?
And, if it is, why can’t God create something that has one of His characteristics?


#3

God can do anything He wants. And we don’t have to be able to understand it.


#4

No, but I thought I heard that he can’t re-creat inifinity- isn’t that just mathimatically logical. Sorry if this is not worded well enough. Thanks!


#5

There several categories of infinite things. The series of integers (1,2,3,4…) is infinite; so is the series of odd numbers only, and the series of even numbers only. In fact all three series are equal. But the number of possible decimals is a greater level of infinity than that if the integers. So all infinities are not created equal.

The universe could be infinite spatially, but if space is curved sufficiently, it might be the equivalent of a sphere with a 3-dimensional surface. It could even, I think, be infinite temporally, if God created it that way.


#6

I’m not so sure that infinity exists as anything but a mathematical abstraction. But who, with a finite mind, can know for sure???:shrug:


#7

Well, mathematicians do deal with infinities routinely. And space, without the influence of material bodies like stars and galaxies, would conceivably be infinite in extent. But the presence of massive objects is said to result in the curvature of space, thereby making it curved, possibly even spherical, rather than flat.


#8

If the universe is infinite, what is it expanding into? If it were infinite, how could it be expanding? :confused:


#9

I think the science generally regards the universe as made up of a finite [countable] number of particles in a finite volume. However it has no boundary/edge/surface. If that is confusing think of a ball it has a surface but no edge. There are similar three dimensional equivalents.


#10

If I recall the cosmology correctly, consider the entire universe as the surface of a balloon. The balloon is covered by dots; these represent galaxies. The balloon is being blown up with air gradually, causing the surface area to expand, and the dots get farther apart. (redshift, anyone?)

But we have to imagine it as a 4-D balloon, because the surface is our conventional 3-D space. The balloon is not expanding into anything, because the entire expanding surface area of the balloon represents the observable universe.

Now, I suppose if one could travel inward through this balloon rather than along the surface, that would mean traveling backward in time, since the smaller diameters of the balloon represent past stages of expansion.


#11

The Universe is finite. It may be expanding but it is measurable by God in space and time. The idea that the universe is infinate just makes certain theories work out the way people want them to. They get a different result when a finite universe is assumed. But, either way it is an assumtion and can’t be proven.

I agree with you, an infinate universe does not sound credible.


#12

Sigh…

I really don’t understand why people take concepts like the theoritically infinite size of the universe as assaults on Christian truth.

Infinite and eternal are not the same thing.

No, we have no empirical evidence that the universe is infinite, but if that is a logical conclusion based on what we can observe, then so be it. Theologically speaking, all that does is make God look even more impressive.

Frankly, I don’t care if the universe is infinite in size or fits in a teacup. God gave us the ability to observe the universe, and it makes no sense to me to assert that His design is intended to deceive us – which one is doing when one asserts that such-and-such scientific theory contradicts our faith. Thus, if we observe X to be true, and X implies Y, and Y requires that Z be true as well, then great – that’s using our God-given abilities to attempt some understanding of Creation.

In other words, why can’t we just say, “Wow, the universe might be infinite?!? That’s really nifty, God!”

Peace,
Dante


#13

Just a couple of thoughts here.

  1. The current scientific understanding of the Universe is that it is not infinite in scope. It currently has a finite size and a finite age. Currently Astronomers believe the Universe to be less than 14 billion years old. Its current size is unknown but is believed to be far larger than 14 billion light years in radius thanks to an initial period of expansion. If this theory is right, we will never be able to see the whole universe since parts of the Universe that are further away than 14 billion light years are currently in parts of the Universe that are expanding from us faster than the speed of light (not a violation of relativity since they are not really moving, rather space is being created).

  2. While observational evidence currently supports the concept of a beginning of the Universe, there is no evidence that it will have a definitive end. Currently it appears that the expansion rate of the Universe is accelerating. If that indeed is the case, and if it does not stop, the Universe will expand forever. 100 billion, trillion years from now, the Universe will be a very cold and dark place, but it will still be here.

  3. Inflationary theory suggests that many universes might have been created from the same inflationary wave that created our Universe (God can be quite efficient when he wants to). Indeed the math suggests that an infinite number of Universes were created and are still being created by that inflationary wave.

  4. Science is by nature tentative. Every believe of science is subject to revision and rejection. So essentially everything I wrote above might be thrown out next year or in 100 years (though I suspect a fair bit of it will remain intact).

  5. Ultimately, the only limit on God’s power is that God cannot create a condition that contradicts his Divinity. In other words, he can’t create something he has no power over, but he can certainly create something infinite if he wants to.


Bill


#14

Three questions:
[LIST]
*]Is it possible to make a model of the universe with ten dimensions - or, for that matter, any number of them ?
*]Travelling through time, to be possible, seems to require that time is divisible into discreet parts. If it’s indivisible, passing through it would seem to be rather like trying to get a grip on a specific point in it (as starting-point) like a fly on a pane of glass; but without the pads they have for doing so.
*]Does non-Euclidian space affect the meaning of infinity as a Divine attribute ?[/LIST]chrisspages.co.uk/NewElectricity/Relativity/index.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry

Theology is in some danger of becoming something only mathematicians can understand…


#15

–Well, my science knowledge is hardly up to date, but some versions of M-theory (successor to string theory) postulate that we live in 11-dimensional space. 10 spatial dimensions and one time dimension, I believe. But that’s not cosmological theory so much as an attempt to describe the micro-structure of space-time.

–As for time travel, at the most basic level we all travel through time in a forward direction. If one were to plot one’s ‘world-line’ it would follow your body through time from birth to death and encompass all the spaces through which you had passed. So when one speaks of “my body,” in actuality, your body is more than what is here at this moment, it’s also the body you had a minute ago and a year ago, and a year in the future, etc, and that body in traveling through time forms what we might call our “world-line.”

–I think that Brian Greene had something about time travel in his book “The Fabric of the Cosmos” but can’t recall it at the moment.

–Infinity as applied to God is entirely different that physical or mathematical infinities. God is pure spirit, and occupies no space or time, so speaking of Him as infinite says nothing about his extension in space or time, since He has none. It rather says that all of his attributes–omnipotence, knowledge, love, eternity, etc, have no limit.


#16

I don’t think this has to do as much with observations as it does conclusions. In this case scientists made certain conclusions first and then interpreted the observations to fit the conclusions. The assumption that the universe is infinate fits into both the desired conclusion and interpreted observations for those conclusions.

Scientist don’t like to say we don’t know. Sometimes they act like modern day Drewids (the religion of pre-Christian Irland) So they say the evidence points to this, picking the this based upon what they want it to be. It has more to do with power or the illusion of power/knowlege than reality.

We don’t know and it’s OK to say that.


#17

Most interesting - thanks :slight_smile: I think I actually understood some of that :smiley:

What you’re saying reminds me of this book - An Experiment With Time. I think it influenced C. S. Lewis.

–I think that Brian Greene had something about time travel in his book “The Fabric of the Cosmos” but can’t recall it at the moment.

–Infinity as applied to God is entirely different that physical or mathematical infinities. God is pure spirit, and occupies no space or time, so speaking of Him as infinite says nothing about his extension in space or time, since He has none. It rather says that all of his attributes–omnipotence, knowledge, love, eternity, etc, have no limit.

The reason I thought there might be repercussions is that, although that is true of God, we finite beings are the ones who are thinking about Him; God is infinite, but we are not :o

Does the acceptance of multi-dimensional “space” make the Ascension, or bi-location, easier to think about ? (I’m not for a moment suggesting that modern physics makes them more likely to be true :eek: - only that bit easier to get one’s head round. Revelation does not in the slightest depend on any human science for its truth; but they can help to make it easier to understand.)

Thanks for the recommendation.


#18

In a way, yes. I once read a little book by George Gamow who used a lot of comparisons betweed 2D and 3D space to explain his points about higher dimensions.

If a stick figure 2-dimensional ‘man’ existed on a 2D surface, and you drew a box around him, he would be imprisoned, unable to cross over the lines. But suppose some 3-D creature, like us, picked him up–off the surface–and then set him back down again outside the lines. To a 2D observer, he would appear to have suddenly disappeared, and then mysteriously reappeared on the other side of the box holding him in. But in actuality, he just traversed thru a 3rd dimension, and then back to his place on the 2D surface.


closed #19

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