USCCB Condemns Separating Immigrant Children from Families


#1105

A lengthy citation? LOL…and then you read a letter in which the bishops were objecting to detaining people unnecessarily at all, and you object that this isn’t objecting to taking children away from detained parents?

If you aren’t willing to read what the bishops have written because the documents are too long, how can you claim you even want to understand what they’re teaching? You act as if you just want to find proofs that you’re right and rebut suggestions that you’re wrong, not research the matter and learn what the bishops and Popes have been trying to teach you. If you wanted to know, you’d exert yourself to challenge your own assumptions.

I give up. I can search for the truth with you, but I’m not going to try to convince someone who is deadset against ever changing his mind. It is pointless. The Popes have been defending immigrants for 100 years. If you are willing to learn that, you now know where to look. If you don’t want to change your mind, I’ll just leave you alone.


#1106

I read the citation you provided. It had to do with incarcerating people unnecessarily; it had nothing whatever to do with the separation of children. Those are two entirely separate issues. This bishops’ objection in that letter would apply to people who didn’t even have children.

You provided a link to a 20+ page document from the USCCB that you claimed showed their previous objection to the separation of children from the adults they were with crossing the border. If you aren’t willing - or able - to cite a comment within that document that supports your contention, why should I be held responsible for not finding anything? You extracted a comment from a letter from the Missouri bishops, why didn’t you extract a comment from the USCCB document? Prove my contention is wrong: cite the passage where the bishops opposed the separation.

I asked a question that challenged your assumptions. I should think it would be up to you to defend your position. It’s not up to me to confirm it.

I wasn’t talking about generic positions in defense of immigrants. I asked a very specific question to which you have provided no effective response.


#1107

Not exactly. There is an obligation to confront sin and evil; there is no such obligation to confront opinions with which one disagrees.

“Not to oppose error is to approve it, and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.” (Pope St. Felix III)


#1108

As I said, it is silly to say someone who is arguing against incarcerating people unnecessarily at all are not arguing at the same time against incarcerating people and taking their children into state custody.

You want to believe the bishops are objecting to Mr. Trump’s actions on political grounds. I’m convinced that you aren’t going to let go of that notion no matter what I say. You don’t think there is anything wrong with seizing toddlers and five-year-olds away from their mothers for weeks or months at a time, and there is nothing I’m going to do to dissuade you.

Fine. You win. Continue to believe what you want to believe. Keep your mind securely unchanged and unassailable. It was silly of me to think for a moment that any Catholic who resists listening to the bishops would ever listen to anyone else.


#1109

Mary and Joseph met the current UN “refugee” requirements, they were not economic migrants.

Anyone fleeing the Govt sanctioned killing of their infant boy qualifies for refugee/asylum status.


#1110

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Matt. 25:44-46
(from the Gospel reading for the Solemnity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, King of the Universe)

The bishops will teach you what that means, but you have to want to learn. If you don’t want to listen to them when they explain the Scriptures to you and how those the words of Our Lord apply to your daily life, but just want to argue and complain that your political life should be free of their guidance, instead, I don’t know what any of the rest of us can do for you. If you want to go your own way, there is no one who is going to stop you.


#1111

I think most people can distinguish between the concepts of incarceration and separation.

This is an assumption on your part and is not based on anything I’ve actually said.

I am convinced by arguments, not by assertions. You’ve been heavy on the latter and pretty light on the former.

Again, nothing I have ever said justifies such an assumption. It is your own uncharitable judgment of me that leads you to such a conclusion.

My opinion will be changed by evidence, not emotional diatribes. I have asked for the first, you’ve responded with the second. I have also been very clear about our obligation to assent to comments from bishops. We are not justified in simply dismissing their statements out of hand, but, where they are prudential judgments, neither are we obligated to accept them. The bishops’ opinions are just as subject to critical analysis as are yours, and just as subject to rejection if they are no more reasonable.


#1112

What part of “you win” wasn’t clear?


#1113

Had you left it at that without the other comments I would have felt no need to respond.


#1114

@PetraG
Why in the world do you imagine Border Patrol doesn’t feed, shelter, and provide medical care or clothing to detainees?

Does your hyperbole know no bounds?


#1115

I do not have any trouble at all believing that.


#1116

Sigh…the bishops have been to the border more than once, so my imagination is unnecessary. They have made statements to inform you about their sense of whether conditions meet the conditions set out in the Gospels and they have written letters to the government about what they think needs to change.

If you don’t want to listen to them, then I don’t have anything to add.


#1117

I responded to your statement and you ignored that I refuted you.
Please examine your integrity of debate.


#1118

I was here to discuss what the Catholic Church teaches, not debate whether or not the bishops need correction.

If you want a debate, I’m sure someone will oblige you.

If you want to know what the Popes and the bishops have taught on this and the very in-depth reasoning behind their positions, they have provided ample on-line resources for you. I’m sure if you run into problems understanding those papers, your diocese has someone to help you with that.

If you are intent on not submitting your opinion to the opinion of the bishops, there is nothing I can do.


#1119

The last I read, there were only 102 minors under the age of 5. Of those, a significant number weren’t really the children of the people claiming to be their parents. One, I think, didn’t have anyone claiming to be the parent. Several alleged parents were in prison. Some had returned to their home countries.

This really isn’t about “toddlers” and “five year olds”. There are hardly any of them among the thousands of minors.

It doesn’t really seem to be about asylum either, since so many thousands were unaccompanied minors and so many chose to enter illegally when they could have avoided detention simply by entering through a port of entry.


#1120

If I can so readily refute your quote, then perhaps you quoted them out of context?

If you quoted them in correct context, then you should be able to defend what they said.

The worst case scenario is you did quote them in correct context. In that case my ready refutation shows their comments were ill considered.


#1121

Again we are feeding the hungry and sheltering the homeless. We just can’t feed or house them all of them.

Are the Bishops criticizing the fact that we aren’t doing those things at all which is patently false because we have accepted asylum seekers. We just cannot help them all.


#1122

Can you give us links to these letters and what suggestions the Bishops have given?


#1123

What conditions set in the Gospels are being violated?


#1124

At last, a comment that actually knows what’s going on.


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