Oh sorry I was thinking of something else.
“At times one gets the impression that our society needs to have at least one group to which no tolerance may be shown; which one can easily attack and hate. And should someone dare to approach them – in this case the Pope – he too loses any right to tolerance; he too can be treated hatefully, without misgiving or restraint”
People repeat errors all the time. Repetition does not make something true. Another poster in another thread claims that: According to Canon 751 of the Catholic Church’s Code of Canon Law and paragraph 2089 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
Does not the SSPX refuse to submit to the Supreme Pontiff in several areas? Or are they in complete accord and in complete submission to the Supreme Pontiff?
Disobedience isn’t Jesus’ will. It could never be.
Here’s my take if the Church is about meeting people where there at and going out to the peripheries then why are traditionalists and the SSPX not heard?
I became a traditionalist because of the homilies that I wasn’t hearing at my diaconate parish.
I got a pretty decent catechesis just listening to the homilies on Sensus Fidelium.
There are so many good Catholic traditions on certain feast days that aren’t practiced in parishes anymore it’s really rather sad because the Latin rite has lost it’s liturgical culture.
When’s the last time you’ve heard of a Catholic Church blessing and giving out St Hubert’s bread?
What about Catholic Churches giving out candy canes or chocolate coins on Saint Nicholas Day.
What about having coffee and fresh buns on St Lucie day.
It’s not just about those specific days it’s also the fact that at most diaconate parishes there aren’t any homilies on the saints that are celebrated or on the theology of major feast days especially holy days of obligation.
We don’t hear church history and homilies encouraging us to stay firm in the faith.
Most homilies are pretty generic and I think in large part that’s because of the Protestant overtones that have affected the Catholic church in America.
This country was founded by Protestant extremists the Puritans and the Protestantism in America is much more anti-catholic and simplistic than it is in Europe.
From what I also understand is that the Novus Ordo Missae ( Ordinary Form Mass or New Mass) is more faithfully practiced in Europe than it is in America with folk and rock guitar masses.
Those are just some examples but there are countless traditions that were really lost especially in the American Catholic Church it’s an absolute shame.
I gave the traditional priests the time of day to hear their side of things and hear what they had to say about things.
I’m not your average traditionalist in that I don’t regularly attend a Latin Mass I go when I can but I regularly attend in Eastern Divine Liturgy.
I was already going to the Eastern rite mission before I was attending the Latin Mass mission and that’s also where my wife converted into the Church as well.
I understand a lot where the SSPX are coming from I think the SSPX Resistance is a bit nutty and borderline Sedevacantist.
The only good thing that I can think of about the SSPX irregularity within the Church is that they would been able to preserve themselves if there was some large-scale apostasy they and some other groups would be the only ones keeping things together.
I suspect it’s that very ideology which has led them to be prideful about not returning to regular status within the Church.
I’m not a canon lawyer so I can’t answer whether it’s right or wrong to attend an SSPX Mass.
I think that the SSPX would be useful to the Church if they were in full communion with he rest of the Church.
Is disobedience to the pope a form of refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff?
The SSPX is irregular and disobedient. Until they become regular and obedient, I want no part of anything they offer.
I’m not even sure what the route to regularity and obedience would look like for them. What I see from the outside is a lot of spiritual pride and ego that gets in the way of the organization and her priests submitting to the Holy See without conditions.
40 years ago, SSPX clergy had far more training and experience in the a diocese, alongside various religious orders, under an Ordinary, than they do now. It’s likely they still had many friends remaining in the diocese, who they could agree or argue with.
Today, that connection is disappearing. Most young clergy rarely had any teachers or mentors with Diocesan experience. Those who grew up in SSPX chapels perhaps lack any background even as laity in a diocesan parish.
The SSPX today is more connected to the Church than the Old Catholic movement, but less connected - less of an influence - than SSPX itself was a few decades ago. This affects “usefulness”.
Like I’ve explained already, it’s not the SSPX’s canonical status that’s irregular, but rather the situation they find themselves in.
In my city, some Traditional Catholics attend diocesan approved TLM. They (we) are working in some diocesan activities, especially prolife. We set up an independent Catholic school, with permission of the bishop but not under the diocese.
We have some influence on some parishes. The SSPX has none.
The SSPX chapel is no doubt prolife, but they are absent from diocesan efforts in this, or any other area. It’s hard to see how the chapel is more useful, when the members have so little relationship to the local Church.
If their usefulness is based on being “independent”, then the Resistance would be even more “useful”.
That is not the case in all places. From what I have been told by a friend from the SSPX most of the Prolife events are mainly supported by their faithful and clergy. -
But that is a secondary point, I think this brings up a wider point, worth answering, namely along the lines of the original post of the topic, namely that, I think that it would be unrealistic to think that should the SSPX be granted ‘official recognition’ that you would see some major impact on the Church. I think that this would be wishful thinking but no realistic. While certain individuals may want to see that recognition granted to them, and I am totally sympathetic with that, but I can’t see it having in seriously major impact on the Church as a whole.
Not only because the SSPX is hardly that large in the first place, but more realistically speaking, as I once recall a priest of the Fraternity of St. Peter who said in his sermon that that he felt that as a whole, they (the FSSP) are regarded like lepers within the frame work of the Church today. They are often marginalized and even ostracized in some cases, and in certain cases certain bishops will not allow them into their diocese. I think that is often the case of all the other ‘officially recognized’ Latin Mass groups.
If the already existent Latin Mass clergy that have approval have not had that much of a major impact on the Church as a whole, I doubt that the SSPX even with official ‘recognition’ will have that impact. I think it is this sort of realism that is understood by the SSPX clergy and superiors, that has allowed them to look at the real issues in the present situation in the Church. They perhaps see it more important to keep doing their daily duty and trying to do what they can to help in the present situation rather than to have a false dreamy idea of ‘recognition’ and what it may mean.
I’ve heard this several times, but to be honest, I don’t see that. This is what I feel I’ve seen:
Vatican: come to the Church, SSPX brethren, we love you, we need you, won’t you come sup with us?
SSPX: Hissss away with ye modernist!
That’s what I feel the attitudes I’ve seen are.
As far as I know, the Vatican has an open arms policy, ready to accept the SSPX, all the SSPX has to do is agree to the orthodoxy of VII and the reformed Roman Rite.
And the SSPX essentially puts unreasonable demands on the Vatican.
I’ll tell you this: if a repudiation of VII and reversion of the Rite to the Tridentine form is what it’ll take for the SSPX to be in the fold - even a thousand years from now they’ll still be “irregular.”
However, if they were IN the fold, they could work a lot more at maybe getting the Magisterium to clarify doctrinal issues arising from the VII documents, as well as work towards a reform of the Roman Rite.
But as they sit now on the periphery, they remain a bastion of hardcore, disillusioned traditionalists, and far away from any association with faithful Catholic traditionalists.
There’s been like 6 people in this thread alone who admit they’d be SSPX supporters if they were in the fold, yet wouldn’t touch them with a 39 and a half foot pole in their current situation, myself included.
Temporary measures have a way of becoming permanent. Organizations set up to address a crisis keep finding new reasons to justify the continuing organization. The organization becomes an end in itself. More and more of its time and resources go to the goal of justifying it’s separate existence, its separate “help”.
The SSPX actually reminds me a lot of what I’ve seen from some Eastern Orthodox people I’ve interacted with.
I say “well, if the Church does this this and this, will you reconcile?” and they reply “those things are great, but then they need to address that that and that” and it just goes on and on. I’ve literally seen Eastern Orthodox come up with a list of 30 things the Church needs to change, and end it by saying “maybe if those things were done we’d consider uniting.” Totally, utterly unreasonable. It shows they don’t truly desire unity in their heart. If they did, they’d be willing to make reasonable concessions as a sacrifice for the greater good of unity.
Some people don’t want unity. It appears some just revel in division. A sad aspect of our fallen human nature.
Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy in a nutshell.
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If you ask the PNCC why they left the Catholic Church, they would say they never left. In their early years the “cause”, or their purpose, was more important than the structure, but over time the structure became a permanent goal in itself. When the RCC allowed Liturgy in Polish, when we got a Polish Pope and some bishops, but the organization goes on. It has momentum. Like SSPX. Sspx is not yet quite as far along, but it t on the same path as far as being a separate denomination