Vatican 2 and syncretism


#1

After the evangelizing Buddhists thread and having read some sedevacanist stuff is it true that catholic church says that all faiths are true or praiseworthy. Is it true that the RCC says that buddhists can be saved without accepting the gospel or Muslims worship the same God as Christians?


#2

All faiths have some truths. That doesn’t mean they are completely true or equally true. Everything true and good is praiseworthy.

People can be saved if they follow the truth as they know it. If they come to know the truth and reject it, knowing it to be the truth (or being ignorant by their own fault), they cannot be saved.

And of course Muslims worship the same God as Christians. There is only one God, and all monotheists worship the same God. St. Paul even spoke of the supreme Deity of philosophical pagans as the true God, citing a pagan poet approvingly who spoke of humans as the “offspring” of God (which clearly implies that the poet was talking about the God Christians worship). Early Christian apologists, similarly, routinely accepted that philosophers were talking about the true God when they spoke of an ultimate Divine Being, and criticized them for worshiping lesser beings as well even though they had some knowledge of the true God.

This isn’t syncretism. It’s just classical Christian monotheism, which acknowledges that the Trinity is a fuller revelation of the God already worshiped by non-Christian monotheists, not a wholly new God hitherto unknown (as the Gnostics erroneously claimed).

Edwin


#3

:thumbsup:


#4

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: (360)

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.... 331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”332 (28, 856)

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: (29)

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 (30, 953, 1219)

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: (161, 1257)

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338 (1260

The source is: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#


#5

:ehh: I guess it’s not that strange of a concept, looking at the fact the Unknown God was described in Acts as being our God. And Sikhism and Baha’i both stem from Islam (I think), so that could be an argument…

What is the official Catholic opinion on this? :confused:


#6

Why would anyone reject the truth if they are sure it’s the truth? People who reject various teachings of their religions do that when they believe these teachings are false, not when they believe the teachings are true.
So how can be such a person damned, if they sincerely believe that a certain teaching is false, even after being catechized and after having studied the matter to the best of their abilities?


#7

See my post above yours. As I am not knowledgeable enough to do more than quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the only other offer I can make is to PM ChurchMilitant, (who has more resources and knowledge) and ask for contributions into the Thread. Sorry.


#8

Pride, stubbornness, cowardice?

Note the qualification: people may be psychologically unsure or even sure of the opposite of the truth, but through their own fault. It’s possible to sear one’s conscience and muddle one’s brain with specious arguments.

C. S. Lewis is really good on this in The Great Divorce.

People who reject various teachings of their religions do that when they believe these teachings are false, not when they believe the teachings are true.
So how can be such a person damned, if they sincerely believe that a certain teaching is false, even after being catechized and after having studied the matter to the best of their abilities?

Depends on what sincere means. If it’s “in good faith”–i.e., based on a genuine love of truth–then they won’t be damned. But people can “sincerely” believe all sorts of things. The relationship between intellect and will is complex, as St. Thomas taught, and a disordered will leads to a darkened intellect and vice versa.

Many atheists seem to me to be praiseworthy for their rejection of idolatry. They may have heard all the arguments for God’s existence, but when they describe the God they don’t believe in it’s still clear that it’s a false idol.

And that, of course, is a further qualification to the “do Muslims worship the true God” question. :stuck_out_tongue:

Edwin


#9

Yes. Sikhs actually, in my opinion, have a clearer understanding of the true God than Muslims. If there is a non-Judeo-Christian teacher who really seems like a true prophet, it is surely Guru Nanak.

Edwin


#10

First, the “Is it true that” Question: Yes, but not under the over-simplification
that you are describing. God is in charge and God will decide how he works
with his Creation. The Native Americans before Colonial Times did not have
the Gospel, but can we say with surety that they are all in Hell? Elements
like that God takes into account and is a Merciful God. We don’t claim to
know the Mind of God, and Protestants ought not to either.

I don’t understand why you use the “syncretism” in your title, seeing how syncretism is
more like when a religion incorporates aspects of other religions (with those religions in
mind, of course), like with the Baha’i or the Yezidi.
Anyway . . .
The Spirit moves as he wills, God decides to whom he dispenses mercy, and Christ
will find many in many strange places. Not all Catholics will be saved, not all Hindus
will be damned. All we need to know are the GENERAL rules, and not forbid the sav-
ing power of Christ from others. WE DON’T KNOW WHO’S SAVED! All we can do is
have faith in Christ and focus on our own souls.

Is it okay not to believe? No, but God works in mysterious ways and calls to ever-
yone, in one form or another, but that is not equated to universalism or things like
that. We don’t pretend to KNOW who is saved Exactly, but if God wants to reach
someone, he will call them, and we can’t KNOW how God works with them.

Oh, and I’m of the opinion that Muslims do NOT worship a DIFFERENT
God, but rather they are incorrect in their beliefs about the SAME GOD
as WE worship. They certainly don’t have the right Gospel, they surely
don’t know God as well as Christians do, they may be wrong about the
Only God, but that doesn’t mean they worship a different God.


#11

Yes, there is only one God, but…James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

We need Jesus Christ if we want to be redeemed to God…John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

It’s not enough to just believe that there is a God. We need to believe in Jesus…
Luke 10:16
16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

So if you reject Jesus, you reject the one who sent him… God.


#12

=Rock7;11557965]After the evangelizing Buddhists thread and having read some sedevacanist stuff is it true that catholic church says that all faiths are true or praiseworthy. Is it true that the RCC says that buddhists can be saved without accepting the gospel or Muslims worship the same God as Christians?

No, No and NO again:D

Why do I sense this is a set-up?

Here from the Catechism of the Catholic Church is God’s singular truth:)

780 The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Thanks for asking,
God Bless you,
Patrick


#13

Patrick,
I mean no offense, but is what you quoted here from the Catechism the new one or the old one from years ago… I ask this because if its the new one, you won’t be selling any sedevacantists back to the church with it. They do not accept the new composed catechism or the new mass, or rather even the new cannons. If anything you have to convince them using what was old and what they accept… yet I haven’t found anything that could, but that is just me. I’ll keep looking.

P.s. not setting you up, just in case you sense that my comment above might be- I just wanted to say that if you are trying to convince a sede to come back, you have to work with what they believe to show them that they are in error. They will not trust what they perceive has changed in The Faith.


#14

Why do you believe there would be an “official” opinion?


#15

Well we have a fairly official statement that Muslims worship the same God as us…


#16

Agreed.

The statement that Muslims (and even more clearly, Jews) worship the true God is not the same thing as the statement that Islam or Judaism is salvific.

Catholics hold open the possibility that innocently ignorant followers of other religions may be saved in spite of the false elements of their beliefs, but that is not to say that all religions are equivalent or that salvation is possible apart from Jesus.

Anyone who is saved is saved by Jesus and because of His sacrifice. It’s possible, though, that some of those so saved were, due to circumstances beyond their control, not aware of or able to embrace Jesus and Christianity as such in this life.

Whether that applies only to people who literally never heard of Jesus (like the pre-colonization Native Americans cited earlier) or also to people who know about Christianity but have been misinformed or psychologically primed against it (like Edwin’s atheists who reject a twisted idea of God) is a matter of some disagreement. We can presume that God knows better than we who would have become Christian under different circumstances and whether their failure to do so is their own fault. (That’s where the mistaken notion that Catholics consider other religions salvific can creep in, since we tend to think that people who hold tightly to the truth they do have – however incomplete or mixed with falsehood it might be – are the ones likely to be in the “would have been Christian if the option were there” category.)

Usagi


#17

There is a lot of misunderstanding on this topic. I think the topic is difficult for Protestants to understand (me included) because Catholic’s believe that salvation involves an acceptance of and cooperation with God’s grace rather than just intellectual faith. While not an exact answer to your question, I highly recommend you listen to question 3 on this Tim Staples CA Open Forum show. The caller asked, “How can a protestant be saved if they don’t partake in the Eucharist?” Tim is a former Pentecostal. So, he understands firsthand that while Protestants may not have the full picture of the truth, God can give them the grace needed for heaven in mysterious ways only known to Him.

Here is the link:
catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-for-non-catholics-7692


#18

=AnneElizabeth;11558658]Patrick,
I mean no offense, but is what you quoted here from the Catechism the new one or the old one from years ago… I ask this because if its the new one, you won’t be selling any sedevacantists back to the church with it. They do not accept the new composed catechism or the new mass, or rather even the new cannons. If anything you have to convince them using what was old and what they accept… yet I haven’t found anything that could, but that is just me. I’ll keep looking.

P.s. not setting you up, just in case you sense that my comment above might be- I just wanted to say that if you are trying to convince a sede to come back, you have to work with what they believe to show them that they are in error. They will not trust what they perceive has changed in The Faith.

It’s the 1994 edition. So I guess that’s the new one. However this is the same teaching that the RCC has had for generations now.

I VERY active in catechist, and dialog with many non-Catholics. But I’ve never been inclined to bend the truth to gain their support.

“Truth”; like our One true God; His one true set of Faith beliefs and His One [only one] Founded, guided, guarded, protected and even warranted by Christ Personally for being able to teach nothing BUT Christ truth on all Faith matters and Moral issues.

I have absolute confidence in God BEING IN CHARGE [emphasis, not shouting:)]. We are to KNOW our faith, live it fully and publicly, share and explain it whenever the Holy Spirit gives us the opportunity to do so, and defend it whenever it becomes necessary.

Matthew 7:24
Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Mt. 16:18- 19 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, [SINGULAR]** and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.** **And I will give to thee [ALONE] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. **And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

Jn.17:14-20 " [14] I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world.I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.[GOD CANNOT DENY HIS OWN REQUEST] Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth.** As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world**.[THIS MEANS WITH GOD’S OWN POWERS AND AUTHORITY] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. ] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

Eph… 4: 4-8 " One body[MEANS ONLY ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith,[MEANS ONLY ONE SET OF BELIEFS] one baptism. one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ."

I am NOT unsympathetic with their unhappiness about the post Vatican II changes; BUT THEY ARE NOT FROM Vatican II, but often implemented despite what Vatican II actually directed. STILL GOD REMAINS IN CHARGE:thumbsup:

The bible passages I shared are not difficult to understand, and either the Bible is the TRUTH or Christianity itself is a fraud. IMPOSSIBLE!

God MUST grant them sufficient grace and HUMILITY to turn BACK to Him and HIS One Church. Our task is to pray and encourage them to do so:o

God ALONE is in charge of the results of our efforts. We are to KEEP trying to reach them, but never but avoiding the truth. AMEN:thumbsup:

God Bless you and thanks,
Patrick


#19

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