Vatican 2?


#1

What all changed in the Catholic Church during/after Vatican 2?


#2

That is too broad a question to be answered in a single post. it rrequires a book. I do like the way you asked it though…"after Vat II "rather than "because of vat II. " A lot of changes happened that vat II NEVER called for

The mass available in the vernacular was one change called for.


#3

To qualify that statement, certain parts of the mass in the vernacular were allowed as an exception. The Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy still preferred Latin as the language of the mass.


#4

[quote=quasimodo]That is too broad a question to be answered in a single post.
[/quote]

:amen:

Since I see you are a new poster, might I recommend the use of the search feature to find more specific threads on particular items of interest regarding either Vatican II or the nature of the church in the last 40 years.

Feel free to resurrect any old thread you find of interest. I am sure you will find people to respond.


#5

I can summarize briefly:

  1. The Church correctly opened the window to let the Church out into the World for the good of the World.

  2. Many members of the Church failed to consult the Vatican II contents and made up the idea the Church had opened the window to let the World into the Church for the good of the ego of the member.

  3. Consequently, the worst parts of the World entered the Church and the whole intention of winning the World for Christ was harmed, though not irreparably.

THERE you have it. Now you can go research specifics.

But be optimistic. There are kooks on both sides (the radical liberals and the radical traditionalists). Ignore them and follow Pope Benedict XVI.


#6

Please, let’s not revert back to latin in the mass. It took me long enough to understand what was being said and done in the mass in English. Only a village idiot would want to sit through a mass in which they couldn’t understand the words being said.


#7

[quote=justcatholic]Please, let’s not revert back to latin in the mass. It took me long enough to understand what was being said and done in the mass in English. Only a village idiot would want to sit through a mass in which they couldn’t understand the words being said.
[/quote]

Dude… that’s why there are missals with the Latin on the left of the page, and the English on the right.

As for what changed “after” Vatican II, there were things that changed “because” of Vatican II, as well- a fair number.

Someone here said follow Pope Benedict XVI- well, when he was yet Cardinal Ratzinger he said that Vatican II didn’t define any dogma at all.


#8

[quote=justcatholic]Please, let’s not revert back to latin in the mass. It took me long enough to understand what was being said and done in the mass in English. Only a village idiot would want to sit through a mass in which they couldn’t understand the words being said.
[/quote]

No offence to you good friend, but there are a lot of people on this forum who greatly love the TLM. They prefer this over the Novus Ordo. I would love to be one of them, but i know not where they celebrate the old rite in my area without paying a visit to the SSPX.

Take the time to read an old Tridentine missal, and you may appreciate the true beauty of the TLM. This is the closest thing i have to it.


#9

[quote=nateph88]What all changed in the Catholic Church during/after Vatican 2?
[/quote]

One thing which changed after Vatican II was the number of marriage annulments granted in the USA.
For example, in 1930, there were about 10 maraige annulments granted. Whereas today it is running at about 40,000 to 50,000 per year in the USA. It goes like this:
[font=Verdana]***“Any marriage that runs into difficulties, and most do at one time or another, can be laid to rest at the tribunal cemetery --declared null because of lack of due competence.” ***[/font]
See the complete article in **Homiletic and Pastoral Review. January 2005, **by [font=Verdana]Sheryl Temaat.[/font]
Another thing which changed after Vatican II, is that women are generally (with some exceptions) no longer wearing headcovering in Church. This is contrary to what it was before Vatican II, when women generally wore headcovering in Church.


#10

[quote=justcatholic]Please, let’s not revert back to latin in the mass. It took me long enough to understand what was being said and done in the mass in English. Only a village idiot would want to sit through a mass in which they couldn’t understand the words being said.
[/quote]

I completely disagree. It is very appealing to the young and to young families (In fact, I have heard it said that those under 40 and over 60 are attracted to the Latin Mass. Typically only those who came of age during Vatican II prefer the English Mass.)

institute-christ-king.org/heavenly.html

Excerpt:

Attractiveness of the Latin Mass

As a matter of fact, more and more young people, who had never before experienced the profoundness and the beauty of the traditional liturgy, are deeply touched by their first contact with it and everywhere are requesting that permission to celebrate this liturgy in public should be given more generously. This is exactly what our Holy Father, John Paul II, has asked our Shepherds to do. It is very convincing to see how the apostolates of the Institute and other communities where the traditional Mass is celebrated are frequented by young families and youth. All of them are attracted by the force of tradition itself. It is the Institute’s aim to give as many people as possible the opportunity to know the classical Roman Liturgy because the people have the experience that it strengthens their faith, it helps them in their struggle for a Christian life in the world of today, and it always attaches them more to the Church and to the Holy Father.


#11

[quote=adnauseum]I can summarize briefly:

  1. The Church correctly opened the window to let the Church out into the World for the good of the World.

  2. Many members of the Church failed to consult the Vatican II contents and made up the idea the Church had opened the window to let the World into the Church for the good of the ego of the member.

  3. Consequently, the worst parts of the World entered the Church and the whole intention of winning the World for Christ was harmed, though not irreparably.

[/quote]

What are you meaning by “to let the Church out into the World”


#12

Here is a link to the Vatican II documents, why not go read all 16 of them?

www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2ALL.HTM

That way you can see for yourself what they really say.


#13

[quote=justcatholic]Please, let’s not revert back to latin in the mass. It took me long enough to understand what was being said and done in the mass in English. Only a village idiot would want to sit through a mass in which they couldn’t understand the words being said.
[/quote]

If you ever went to a Tridentine Mass, you would know that much of the Mass of the Faithful, which begins at the offertory, is said silently by the priest at the altar. It gives one time to truly contemplate the mystery happening before our eyes. Sacred silence is observed in the Tridentine Mass, something which is sorely lacking in the Novus Ordo where we are supposed to “participate” in the Mass. I knew a lady who would answer people who want to participate in the Mass which hand would they liked nailed to the cross first.


If you truly don’t know what is happening in the Mass, I suggest you take the time to learn the Mass before you make ignorant comments about those of us who truly love the Tridentine Mass. Judging from the responses to your statement, the only village idiot here is you.


#14

[quote=justcatholic]Only a village idiot would want to sit through a mass in which they couldn’t understand the words being said.
[/quote]

This is intresting…since the Mass is now in English do people “understand the words?” I’m open to both the Tridentine Mass and the N O but…I’ve always thought the argument against Latin was bogus.

First, there only so many words which are used in the Mass so you’re not having to comprehend Latin on a conversational level.

Second having the Mass in Latin forces you to study and read the words in English.

However, the main reason people don’t understand is poor chatechisis.

Look at today, we’ve got something like 30 percent of the Catholic population believing what the Chuch teaches on the Real Presence…is English at fault? No, but would Latin be at fault if someone didn’t understand the Mass in Latin? The answer is no.

The danger is not whether we go back to a Mass in Latin or go to a Mass in Greek or Hebrew or any language on Earth…the danger lies in not proclaiming what the Chruch teaches.


#15

[quote=nateph88]What are you meaning by “to let the Church out into the World”
[/quote]

I was paraphrasing either Pope Benedict XVI, or else his good friend the late Hans Urs von Balthasar. I don’t recall, but one of them characterized Vatican II as opening a window to the World.

By the phrase of opening a window to the world, I take it they meant to make the Church more of a living sign and sacrament in the world by engaging with it in its language and confronting its intellectual and moral currents. I’m sure they said it better than I can.

The analogy is either in The Ratzinger Report or in Hans Urs von Balthasar’s fine book A Primer for the Unsettled Layman.


#16

Permanent deacons, especially married ones.

Restoration of the RCIA process.

Viewing Protestants as “separated brethren.”

The 1983 Code of Canon Law is generally viewed as coming out of Vatican II.


#17

The Sacrament of Penance became the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Reception of both species by the laity in Mass.


#18

[quote=Catholic2003]The Sacrament of Penance became the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
[/quote]

What’s the difference? I thought they were one in the same? i thought the church couldn’t change what was infallibly defined…
Or did just the mentality change, from the fire and brimstone to the loving, caring god who forgives?


#19

[quote=Nekić]What’s the difference? I thought they were one in the same? i thought the church couldn’t change what was infallibly defined…
Or did just the mentality change, from the fire and brimstone to the loving, caring god who forgives?
[/quote]

From Sacrosanctum Concilium:

  1. With the passage of time, however, there have crept into the rites of the sacraments and sacramentals certain features which have rendered their nature and purpose far from clear to the people of today; hence some changes have become necessary to adapt them to the needs of our own times. For this reason the sacred Council decrees as follows concerning their revision.

  1. The rite and formulas for the sacrament of penance are to be revised so that they more clearly express both the nature and effect of the sacrament.

Aside from the renaming, reconciliation services were created to bring out the community aspect of the sacrament.

Here is an essay on this change by Fr. Giles Dimock.

This table by Fr. Thomas Richstatter shows the changes in this sacrament throughout the history of the Church. This latest change is minor compared to the early history.


#20

justcatholic - I have a t-shirt that says Village Idiot on it.

I went to a Latin mass once, at Notre Dame (indiana). Latin, incense, the whole bit. It was awesome.

I love Notre Dame.


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