Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades


#1

The Times March 20, 2006

Vatican change of heart over ‘barbaric’ Crusades
From Richard Owen in Rome
timesonline.co.uk/article/0,13509-2093921,00.html#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=World

"THE Vatican has begun moves to rehabilitate the Crusaders by sponsoring a conference at the weekend that portrays the Crusades as wars fought with the “noble aim” of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity.

The Crusades are seen by many Muslims as acts of violence that have underpinned Western aggression towards the Arab world ever since. Followers of Osama bin Laden claim to be taking part in a latter-day “jihad against the Jews and Crusaders”.

The late Pope John Paul II sought to achieve Muslim- Christian reconciliation by asking “pardon” for the Crusades during the 2000 Millennium celebrations. But John Paul’s apologies for the past “errors of the Church” — including the Inquisition and anti-Semitism — irritated some Vatican conservatives. According to Vatican insiders, the dissenters included Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI…"

Click On The Above Link To Read The Rest Of The Article


#2

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2006/03/010651print.html


#3

Why on earth would anyone want to associate himself with the crusades?

That’s the equivalent of Protestants publishing tracts about how Oliver Cromwell, despite his “faults”, was really just trying to defend the sola scriptura community of Ireland!


#4

[quote=pro_universal]Why on earth would anyone want to associate himself with the crusades?
[/quote]

Perhaps because if it were not for the crusades we would either be speaking Arabic or be Muslim? Most of the ‘crusades’ were not offensive wars, pro.


#5

[quote=Semper Fi]Perhaps because if it were not for the crusades we would either be speaking Arabic or be Muslim? Most of the ‘crusades’ were not offensive wars, pro.
[/quote]

Regardless of what you think the muslims’ plans were, this is not true.


#6

The Crusades were offensive wars, and in the long run they were unsuccessful (I don’t buy the idea that they prevented Europe from becoming Muslim, unless you are counting the wars in southeastern Europe and the Mediterranean in the later Middle Ages and early modern period).

But they were clearly counterattacks. Christendom had been under attack from Islam for nearly half a millenium by the time the Crusades were launched. (Granted, the Abbasid Empire hadn’t been very aggressive, but there had been vicious raiding in the Mediterranean that had devastated large parts of Italy.)

I don’t think Christians need to apologize for the Crusades themselves. I do think we need to repent for the violence that took place in the course of the Crusades, and in particular for the way that they undercut rather than supporting Eastern Chrsitianity.

Edwin


#7

I’m going to see if I can find the book mentioned in the second link:

A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam

By the way, pro, do you really think Jesus wants you to work toward correcting “misinterpretations” about a religion that denies His Divinity?


#8

no one is really asking for any Christians to apologize for the Crusades because no one here were responsible for it…unless you believe that you are responsible for other peoples mistake, then apologize away.


#9

[quote=pro_universal]Regardless of what you think the muslims’ plans were, this is not true.
[/quote]

• Caliph Omar led the great Arab conquests between the years 634 - 644. He is on record as saying: “It behooves us to devour the Christians and our sons to devour their descendants, so long as any of them remain on the earth.” When Omar conquered Jerusalem in 638, the city had been Christian for over 300 years. Later, it was the turn of Spain , Sicily , Greece and what is now Turkey , where the communities founded by St Paul himself were turned into ruins.

• From 686 to 689 a series of edicts in Egypt ordered every publicly visible cross destroyed, and every Christian church to bear on its door an anti-Christian slogan.

• The traditional Muslim demand upon every newly encountered sovereign throughout the years of Islamic expansion was: ‘accept Islam, or prepare for war’.

• In 838 Caliph al-Mu’tasim killed 30,000 men from the city of Amorion in Asia Minor ; he sold the same number of men, women and children into slavery.

• In 846 Muslim soldiers descended upon Rome and sacked St Peter’s Basilica.

• In the 850s in Spain a number of Cordoba 's Christians were martyred for declaring that Mohammed was not a true prophet. They refused to submit to the prohibition of public Christian worship and an enforced second-class status in their own land.

• In 1071 the Muslim Turks virtually annihilated the Byzantine Christian army at Manzikert. It was this defeat that led the Byzantine Emperor to appeal to the Pope for aid against the Islamic threat, thus sparking the Crusades.

That’s a few Muslim acts of aggression prior to the first Crusade was launched. The Crusades were just, the actions of the men partaking in the Crusades at times were deplorable.


#10

[quote=discipleofJesus]The Times March 20, 2006

Vatican change of heart over ‘barbaric’ Crusades
From Richard Owen in Rome
timesonline.co.uk/article/0,13509-2093921,00.html#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=World

"THE Vatican has begun moves to rehabilitate the Crusaders by sponsoring a conference at the weekend that portrays the Crusades as wars fought with the “noble aim” of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity.

The Crusades are seen by many Muslims as acts of violence that have underpinned Western aggression towards the Arab world ever since. Followers of Osama bin Laden claim to be taking part in a latter-day “jihad against the Jews and Crusaders”.

The late Pope John Paul II sought to achieve Muslim- Christian reconciliation by asking “pardon” for the Crusades during the 2000 Millennium celebrations. But John Paul’s apologies for the past “errors of the Church” — including the Inquisition and anti-Semitism — irritated some Vatican conservatives. According to Vatican insiders, the dissenters included Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI…"

Click On The Above Link To Read The Rest Of The Article
[/quote]

I know moderately the history of the crusades and I don’t condemn them, I know that Islam borders were getting ever closer to the Byzantines’, but I also know that it wasn’t purely for defense or faith, there were a lot of political reasoning for it too. I don’t think we should apologize for what we did, they were long ago and almost forgotten, so let bigons be bigons, or how ever it is. I do think that the artical was somewhat biased thoughm, but most things seem to be these days.


#11

[quote=Eden]I’m going to see if I can find the book mentioned in the second link:

A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam

By the way, pro, do you really think Jesus wants you to work toward correcting “misinterpretations” about a religion that denies His Divinity?
[/quote]

Yes. An unqualified yes.


#12

That’s a few Muslim acts of aggression prior to the first Crusade was launched. The Crusades were just, the actions of the men partaking in the Crusades at times were deplorable.

And I say they were unjust, because they used bloody means to defend an unjust and corrupt regime that treated Christians worse than the muslims did by far.

What kind of just cause is that, to go on a bloody tirade, killing Jews in Europe, robbing the Italians, killing every man woman and child in Jerusalem…in order to defend an empire that made the word “byzantine” what it is today?


#13

[quote=pro_universal]And I say they were unjust, because they used bloody means to defend an unjust and corrupt regime that treated Christians worse than the muslims did by far.

What kind of just cause is that, to go on a bloody tirade, killing Jews in Europe, robbing the Italians, killing every man woman and child in Jerusalem…in order to defend an empire that made the word “byzantine” what it is today?
[/quote]

I really don’t understand why you’re so hard on what Catholics did so long ago, but no one can say anything about Muslims about to be-head a man in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity TODAY! It defies logic…

Just admit you’re not Catholic and stop with this farce already.


#14

[quote=Mike_D30]I really don’t understand why you’re so hard on what Catholics did so long ago, but no one can say anything about Muslims about to be-head a man in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity TODAY! It defies logic…

Just admit you’re not Catholic and stop with this farce already.
[/quote]

Where did I bash the Catholic Church???

I stated a simple point: The Crusades were not just wars. They employed unjust means for the unjust purpose of defending an Empire that treated its people worse than the conquerors did.

What does that have to do with bashing Catholics???


#15

[quote=pro_universal]Where did I bash the Catholic Church???

I stated a simple point: The Crusades were not just wars. They employed unjust means for the unjust purpose of defending an Empire that treated its people worse than the conquerors did.

What does that have to do with bashing Catholics???
[/quote]

Look at the language you use,* " to go on a bloody tirade, killing Jews in Europe, robbing the Italians, killing every man woman and child in Jerusalem", * that isn’t true, it’s a gross exageration, but you have no problem stating it. Now if someone talked about Muslims raping and sacking Constantinople, or 9/11, I bet you would be all over them.

Please enough with the farce, I’ve heard you talk about Catholics killing Jews, the Crusades, Nazi’s enough times to know what you’re about. Yet you jump on anyone who talks about Islam, please. A man is about to be killed in Afghanistan and all you could talk about was how horrible Catholics were 800 years ago.


#16

The crusades helped ensure that Europe was not enslaved to Islam. It kept the militant Muslims busy at home. But keep in mind how often they kept trying to invade us. Thank God the crusades, despite their faults, saved the faith. St. Louis of France pray for us.

Hey pro, is there anything you Muslims can do that would make you finally condemn it? You are so quick to attack my faith and so slow to look at your own in the same way. Let’s see, we defend our land against Islamic invasion and are therefore bad. Muslims blow up civilian targets and therefore are good. Wow pro. what logic.


#17

[quote=pro_universal]Yes. An unqualified yes.
[/quote]

Really? You think Jesus would want you to spend all of your energy correcting misinterpretations of a religion that teaches the heresy that He is not the Son of God? A very Muslim answer indeed. Thanks for the honesty. :thumbsup:


#18

[quote=pro_universal]Where did I bash the Catholic Church???

[/quote]

The fact that you are defending a belief-system from being “misrepresented” that denies Jesus even died on the cross let alone the fact that He is the Son of God is one great big bash not just to Catholics but more importantly to Jesus Himself.


#19

[quote=Eden]I’m going to see if I can find the book mentioned in the second link:

A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam

[/quote]

amazon.com/gp/product/0895260131/104-2361109-8831159?n=283155

There is a whole PIG (Politically Incorrect Guide) series. I have this one and the PIG of American History. I have not read them yet. I got them free with my subscription to Human Events.

I just get scarier and scarier …


#20

[quote=Eden]The fact that you are defending a belief-system from being “misrepresented” that denies Jesus even died on the cross let alone the fact that He is the Son of God is one great big bash not just to Catholics but more importantly to Jesus Himself.
[/quote]

But you bash Islam all the time so I suppose this is acceptable.


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