Vatican II - the beginning of the end?


#1

It seems to me after much reading on the subject that Vatican II was taken over by liberals and thus the following documents put forth were riddled with ambiguity, thus we have the liberals claiming that the Church endorses what they support. And on the other side of the coin we have things like SSPX claiming that the popes were anti-popes.

It certainly seems that Satan has infilitrated the Church, and I fully believe that we still need to consecrate Russia to Our Lady, everything I have read points to it. Vatican II seems to show an unfortunate series of events that have led to even more confusion and problems within the Church.

Why is it so complicated to just want to be Catholic???

Was Vatican II the beginning of the downfall of the Church, leading towards the great apostasy?

(please, I know the “gates will never prevail” stuff, i didnt mean to imply that the Church would fail)

Are we all living in blind comfort in the end times?

Wondering In Christ.

Andre.


#2

you don’t mean that the church will fail…

does that mean that you feel the Catholic church is no longer
’the church’ ?

:slight_smile:


#3

Peace be with you,
I would first inquire about what reading you are refering to in your initial statement. I’m sure you would agree that accuracy and legitamacy of source as well as personal agenda must be taken into consideration when researching any subject. I may suggest adding the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” (which is far from ambiguity) as well as numerous encyclicals by both John Paul the Great and Pope Benedict XVI (including some published as Cardinal Ratzinger “Truth and Tolerance”, “Ratzinger Report”) and documents that came out of the institution of Vatican II. I believe it could be argued that the fact that the Church is NOT ambiguous is the cause of many of Her opposition today. Often, moral absolutes and strict judgements are difficult for society to stomach.

Secondly, it must be pointed out that there have been other times in the Church’s history (preVatican II) when the true Pope was accused of being an anti-Pope by dissidents.

I would assert that Satan, rather than infiltrating the Church, is attacking it with his full gusto. To show himself plainly, he must have great fear of faith of God’s Church. We must face this confrontation rather than run in fear and cleave ever tighter to our Lord and his Holy Mother (as our Popes have been exemplifying for us). The Church has faced crisis before and in every period of crisis, great saints have arose to defend and profess the faith. It is a challenge for all of us, and one that must be faced head on with assurance that the the gates of heaven will not prevail against God’s Church.

Perhaps we should question what it really means to “just be Catholic”. It must mean that we are for our Lord, loving Him above all people and prefering Him to all things, we must hold tight to our Holy Mother and our Mother the Church, and strive to ever deepen our faith.

In referring to the downfall of the Church, you are by necessity implying that the Church will fail, because there can be no downfall without failure.

Of course we must not “blindly live in comfort”, but must prepare to battle for our Lord (physical conflict is not the only type of war).

May God bless and keep you,
k


#4

[quote=kquinn]Peace be with you,
…** I may suggest adding the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” (which is far from ambiguity)** …
[/quote]

Ok, let us look to the Catechism:

**The Church’s ultimate trial **

CCC#675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers [HOW ABOUT 85% AS TODAY?]. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The **supreme religious deception **is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which **man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah **come in the flesh.

CCC 676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.[ZIONISM]

CCC 677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death [APPARENT DEATH OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH] and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, **not by a historic triumph of the Church **through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.(580)

QUESTIONS:

How many is “many” to be deceived?
How can the MANY be deceived if the hierarchy is not consenting to and even advocating apostate religion in the very heart of the Church (St Pius X)?

Are Catholics going to run en mass to some sect? NO! (Although the 1520-1620AD drained many as well, but it did not drain off the many of the hierarchy.Arianism was another example, except it was not the “end time”. The NT Bible was hardly a reality, and many dogmas had not yet been professed in any formal way. That is not so today.)

What will it look like when it is in progress?
Will the hierarchy be TRUE?
Will even the apparent pope be TRUE?

My question relates to THIS part of the end times…the “religious deception”. In order to deceive the many, will the hierarchy have to be cooperative as a whole to make such a near universal deception work?
My answer would be yes. The sheep follow to their deception. A Newchuch is the model for all this to happen. There is no better model conceivable…a group thru a council or convention, takes over the seats of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, teaches religious deception under the facade of catholic hierarchy. Whose gonna question them as being apostates? The many see the same geographic and hierarchical structure, and “similar mass”, etc.
The perfect deception to take out the many.

How else could it happen?

Catholics would never en masse run to another religion. So, the other religion, the religion of man, comes to the Catholic church and assumes its structure.
A Newchurh is the ONLY logical way to deceive the many, including the hierarchy. That is Satan’s ultimate strategy to capture the world’s largest group of Christ’s members.
No one addresses this section of the Catechism, as if it was a useless entry, or that such a time is always to be in the far distant future, not 2,000yrs into Christianity.
The “coincidental” rash of natural calamities seems to be a disconnected set of events for most.


#5

In the end there will be a great apostacy, which means the Church will largely fail…in many ways that is happening and has happened for several decades.

I agree that Russie should be consecrated, yet I do not know if the current Pope has the impetus to pull it off.


#6

[quote=Magicsilence]It seems to me after much reading on the subject that Vatican II was taken over by liberals and thus the following documents put forth were riddled with ambiguity, thus we have the liberals claiming that the Church endorses what they support. And on the other side of the coin we have things like SSPX claiming that the popes were anti-popes.

It certainly seems that Satan has infilitrated the Church, and I fully believe that we still need to consecrate Russia to Our Lady, everything I have read points to it. Vatican II seems to show an unfortunate series of events that have led to even more confusion and problems within the Church.

Why is it so complicated to just want to be Catholic???

Was Vatican II the beginning of the downfall of the Church, leading towards the great apostasy?

(please, I know the “gates will never prevail” stuff, i didnt mean to imply that the Church would fail)

Are we all living in blind comfort in the end times?

Wondering In Christ.

Andre.
[/quote]

I think you see more than most people. The only thing I would disagree with is that the SSPX is Sedevacntists.

The SSPX accepts all of the post Vatican II Popes as legitimate. If you go to their website (sspx.org), they have the Pope’s picture on it and profess loyalty to him. They just reject those things which the Church has always rejected, such as religious liberty and false ecumenism; they also have a problem with the new form of Mass.


#7

About the Fatima promises, Sr. Lucia herself said the consecration done by JPII satisfied Our Lady’s request. I don’t see the need to keep saying it hasn’t been done when it has.

Also, Our Lady never promised there would be instant peace and conversion nor that we wouldn’t have any more struggles with communism in the world after Russia abandoned that failed and failing philosophy. Even in China the communist system is breaking down, although they are putting up a mask to the world that it is thriving there.

We are going to have wars and rumors of wars, people trying to sabotage the Church from within and attack it from without until Christ returns. Anyone who thinks things will change overnight or that the Church is in big trouble knows little of history nor does he fully understand that the Kingdom of God cannot be destroyed by men, demons or anything else that might stand in its way.


#8

[quote=Magicsilence]And on the other side of the coin we have things like SSPX claiming that the popes were anti-popes.
Why is it so complicated to just want to be Catholic???
Are we all living in blind comfort in the end times?
[/quote]

on SSPX, please check the interview with Bishop Fellay after his meeting with Pope Benedictus XVI (29 August 2005)
sspx.co.uk/articles.php?articleid=283

"Why is it so complicated to just want to be Catholic???"
Because Satan wants to destroy us.
End times is good news. each and every mass we pray:
“Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!” (Rev. 22,20).
“How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” (Rev. 6,10).
one and a half billion (I repeat, billion) unborn child legally killed; think about it.


#9

[quote=Della]About the Fatima promises, Sr. Lucia herself said the consecration done by JPII satisfied Our Lady’s request. I don’t see the need to keep saying it hasn’t been done when it has.
[/quote]

You should look into the matte a little further.

Sr. Lucy specifically stated many times that the consecration of the world (not Russia, as requested), performed by John Paul II (without the other Bishops as requested) did not fullfill the request. This makes perfect sense, when we consider that Pope Pius XII, not only consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, which is exactly what Pope John Paul II did, but Pius XII went further at another time and actually consecrated Russia by name to the Immaculate Heart. However, this consecration was not in union with the other Bishops, which was a specific part of the request of our Lady of Fatima.

Sr. Lucy specifically stated several times that the consecration of the world by John Paul II (without the other Bishops) did not fullfill our Lady’s request.

On 19 March 1983, Sr. Lucia re-affirmed that Russia must be consecrated by name, by all the Bishops of the world in union with the Pope. She wrote:

“In the act of offering of Mary 13, 1982, Russia did not appear as being the object of the consecration. And each bishop did not organize in his own diocese a public and solemn ceremony of reparation and consecration of Russia. Pope John Paul II simply renewed the consecration of the world executed by Pius XII on October 31, 1942. From this consecration we can expect some benefits, but not the conversion of Russia.”

Just before the 1984 consecration John Paul II performed, Sr. Lucia’s friend, Eugenia Pestana, asked her if the upcoming consecration in three days would fulfill Our Lady’s request. Sr. Lucia, who’d read the text of the Pope’s speech, said:

“That consecration cannot have a decisive character because Russia does not appear in it as the sole object of consecration”. (Fatima, Tragedy and Triumph, pg. 172-173).

An interviewer with Sol de Fatima asked her in September 1985, one year after the 1984 consecration, whether that consecration was what Our Lady wanted.

Sister Lucia: “There was no participation of all the bishops, and there was no mention of Russia.”

Interviewer: So the consecration was not done as requested by Our Lady?

Sister Lucia: No. Many bishops attached no importance to this act.

The following is what Pope John Paul II himself said after the 1984 consecration. He is quoted praying this to Mary after the consecration of the world (not Russia)," on 25 March 1984, in Osservatore Romano:

*"Enlighten especially the peoples of which You Yourself are awaiting our consecration and confiding.

Why would the Pope say Mary is “awaiting” the consecration, if it had just taken place?

But then, in 1989, there appeared a type written letter of Sr. Lucy that supposedly changed all that she had said about the consecration. She then supposedly stated that the consecration of 1984 was sufficient. Needless to say, the authenticity of this type written letter is questioned by many, not only because it reverses all of her previous statements, but also because Sr. Lucy was never known to write using a typewriter.

The following is a link that will give you the facts to the “consecration” controversy.

fatimacrusader.com/cr63/cr63pg11.asp*


#10

[quote=Della]…
We are going to have wars and rumors of wars, people trying to sabotage the Church from within and attack it from without until Christ returns. Anyone who thinks things will change overnight or that the Church is in big trouble knows little of history nor does he fully understand that the Kingdom of God cannot be destroyed by men, demons or anything else that might stand in its way.
[/quote]

So, are you saying the CCC 675 is deranged, inaccurate? What are you saying about it? Your post defacto denies the “death” of the Church described in CCC675, it appears to me.

Your post proves my point in my previous post:
No one addresses this section of the Catechism, as if it was a useless entry, or that such a time is always to be in the far distant future, not 2,000yrs into Christianity.


#11

It is not at all difficult to think that CCC 675 applies well to our current times. We have gone through 30-40 years of trial and of Catholics by the many millions falling away from the faith. The faith of millions has been shaken.

It is not at all hard to believe that we are in the end times period.


#12

It is possible we are living in the end times but it is also possible we aren’t. Only the Father knows and I find it best to live today and do what we can to help those around us and to worship the Lord. I try to avoid talk of end times because I become discouraged with the number or people that won’t be with the Trinity forever, and at times, myself included. Just my opinion however.

Also, two things:

  1. Does anyone know anything about the www.fatima.org site

  2. Maybe Russia was never properly consecrated because a few people(higher clergy) are having doubts about their faith and if it appears Russia and the rest of the world is not getting better, they would lose their faith.Or maybe they are afraid of what will happen, like the end of the world or how the public will view it. Who knows. This is all very, very hypothetical. I am in no way trying to bash the Church, so please dont suspend me!

dxu


#13

[quote=snowman10]It is possible we are living in the end times but it is also possible we aren’t. Only the Father knows and I find it best to live today and do what we can to help those around us and to worship the Lord. I try to avoid talk of end times because I become discouraged with the number or people that won’t be with the Trinity forever, and at times, myself included. Just my opinion however.

Also, two things:

  1. Does anyone know anything about the www.fatima.org site

  2. Maybe Russia was never properly consecrated because a few people(higher clergy) are having doubts about their faith and if it appears Russia and the rest of the world is not getting better, they would lose their faith.Or maybe they are afraid of what will happen, like the end of the world or how the public will view it. Who knows. This is all very, very hypothetical. I am in no way trying to bash the Church, so please dont suspend me!

dxu
[/quote]

  1. Fatima.org is a SSPX support group…the pope is the pope, but a heretic, and so is the VATII council heretical. Stay with their Fatima history, but their “3rd secret” ideas are pure speculation. Then they build a whole world around it.
  2. The CCC 675 is there for a reason. I don’t think the reason is “this is all very hypothetical”.

#14

I am fully aware that personal opinions plague every text written about anything, pretty much.

However, I seek only to find the truth and obey it, in whatever shape or form.

For my own part, I dont believe in having opinions about something, either you believe what the church says and submit to authority or dont. Period.

The thing that gets me is that what all the sedevacantists are saying is true from a completely factual basis:

  1. Their claims about the new mass are completely true, I, for one, was never aware that mass was supposed to be about a sacrifice to God, i thought it was just a communal gathering and recieving communion, and that it the honest truth. Coupled with this the fact that my local Church is very orthodox, no abuses of any kind in the mass. And I still, even after really attending a mass ( i.e, in the right frame of mind after lapsing for a good number of years), did not realise the point of it all. People chat before the service, during the service, after the service, only a handful kneel/genuflect. We have teenage girls receiving communion in an outfit that wouldnt go amiss in a nightclub.

  2. Their claims about Fatima ring true aswell, Robert Sungenis has an amazing article about it here:

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/mary/fatima-controversy1.htm

And nothing is mere opinion or intellectual wordplay, just solid hard facts about things said about the third secret that dont match up with the one released in 2000.

  1. If one looks at the popes between Vatican II and now it is plain to see that they have deviated from the Truth somewhat, HOWEVER i do not for one second hold that it somehow means that they are no longer pope, we are all human after all. (The very notion of sedevacantism is just wrong in itself, but that doesnt stop the people who support it justifying their position with Truth, they simply present the facts, but do not look to history to confirm their position. I think there was a saint called St Athansius, i believe, who stood firm during the Arian heresy, and in the end won the battle against literally all other cardinals, bishops etc…)

  2. Liberals are everywhere. In a local discussion with my parish priest he told me that in his opinion we become Gods after we die!!! (well, at least he did affirm that only those who went to heaven could achieve such a status).

  3. If one looks at the general state of the Church it is appalling. An amazingly high number of Catholics use contraception, over 50% think divorce is OK, and innumerable other topics are simply dismissed as old fashioned, and that we no longer have a need for them.

We have people proclaiming to be Catholic who fully support homosexuality!

How much lower can we get!

IT seems to me that we are in that period of apostasy, a Catholic is shown true by his actions, and im not seeing any great actions from the popes after Vatican II OR the current pope that seek to rid the Church of these liberals, and restore it to its full glory. Coupled with the direct rebellion not to consecrate Russia to Mary, one could say the popes themselves have been liberals, and in comparison with previous popes they do seem to have been. JPII was a nice guy, but im not sure his actions at Assisi were exactly in accord with Church dogma. Of course I could be wrong, but never once did he proclaim the necessity of conversion to the Catholic faith! It seems St Paul did otherwise, as indicated in the epistles.

The summary is that at this point in time, based purely on facts, it seems very likely that Satan has infiltrated the Church, liberals are everywhere, and it doesnt seem like Benedict is doing much, HOWEVER, we must pray for Him, the weight of the world on his shoulders must be heavy. I truly believe that if Russia is consecrated Our Lady will alleviate the problems that the Church has become riddled with.

As to the person above who doubted the validity of Sr Lucia’s acceptance of the 1984 consecration as being valid had it dead right. She vehemently denied that it had filled the consecration need. Again, if true, it means there is a lot of deception at the highest level in the Vatican. From the facts we have, everything does, unfortunately, point to such a scenario.

Wondering (a little less) in Christ.

Andre.


#15

Andre, if you are going to take the word of disaffected people like Sungenis over that of the popes, then I think you are just setting yourself up for a huge disappointment. Anyone can find things wrong with anything if they look hard enough, spread around enough innuendo and sigh and moan about how things just ain’t like they used to be. These people are all either egoist or they are extremely immature.

Secondly, your statement: “Coupled with the direct rebellion not to consecrate Russia to Mary” is way off the beam. Nowhere in Church teaching does it say that the pope and the Magisterium are subject to the directives of any seer no matter if that seer is approved by the Church or not. Any such directives are applied at the discretion of the pope, not any nun or any disgruntled Catholic who thinks s/he is more Catholic than the pope.

And if you think the Church hasn’t been through times in its history in which the whole thing looked like it was going to go down for the count, you don’t know much about it. Why you want to take the word of people who love their own words more than their own Church is beyond me. Maybe its because it sounds sensational or feeds some disappointment of yours, but charging the Church with deception is very serious. I think you need to have a good long talk with your priest/confessor.


#16

[quote=Della]Andre, … I think you need to have a good long talk with your priest/confessor.
[/quote]

Do you mean the one he mentioned that told him that when we die we ourselves become gods?
Sounds like a Mormon, really. Lotta help he’ll be.


#17

It certainly seems that Satan has infilitrated the Church, and I fully believe that we still need to consecrate Russia to Our Lady, everything I have read points to it. Vatican II seems to show an unfortunate series of events that have led to even more confusion and problems within the Church.

**Satan is very clever. If you have never read the book “Father Elijaih” then I’d highly suggest it. Great Catholic end times story with an awesome ending. Once you start it you won’t be able to put it down. **

Why is it so complicated to just want to be Catholic???

**It’s really not, just be faithful and be as holy as you can, pray for others and God will change your part of the world. James 5:16…the prayers of a righteous man has great powers in its effects. **
**We all have frustrations with the problems of the Church, that’s human nature,and all faithful Catholic Christians from time-to-time really echo in their hearts what St. Augustine said…our hearts are restless until they rest in You [God]. **
**It really isn’t complicated if we just remember that we are called by Jesus Christ to be faithful individually and individually we make up the whole Church, and the more faithful we have then the more God will hear our petitions and things will change for the better. :slight_smile: St. Maximilian Colby said…[paraphrasing]…you find out what Gods will is and you just do it! **

Was Vatican II the beginning of the downfall of the Church, leading towards the great apostasy?

Vatican ll wasn’t a bad council as some say; it was the overreaction of the liberals who thought they could now do whatever they wanted and the apathy of the orthodox Catholics who eventually allowed abuses that shouldn’t have been allowed. Don’t get caught up in the Vatican ll was bad, it wasn’t.
Certainly the great apostasy is in the future, but when we don’t know. After reading the book “Father Elijiah” it made me think it could be sooner than later, but we have to live for the day, hour and minute for Jesus, for His suffering for us, for the love of others that they might see Jesus in us, in the Holy Eucharist and that they would come back to the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church.

(please, I know the “gates will never prevail” stuff, i didnt mean to imply that the Church would fail)

Exactly.

Are we all living in blind comfort in the end times?

**Well, no one knows. Everyday could be an end time for some of us. We could die in the next hour, day or week and our judgment will be sooner than later; God have mercy on those in mortal sin. As far as the second coming of Christ, well no one knows for sure; I’m sure you know that too :slight_smile: Hang in their, go to confession and to Mass, pray the sorrowful mysteries of the rosarie tommorow (Friday), do penance, help the poor and share the love of Christ with everyone. Satan loves to get us down and we all do, because we are like sheep who stray and need a shepard. **
**Thank God we have an Earthly one that is watching his masters flock until He comes to take us home to the beatific vision; one caveat, most of those who read this post will require some sort of purgation before entering into Gods pure presence since they still need some final sanctification on their souls (Rev 21:27, Heb 12:14, 1 Cor 3:15) and I’m sure I will also be one of them :slight_smile: **


#18

Re Fatima - The October 2005 issue of Catholic Family News that my mother subscribes to had the following article by Christopher A. Ferrara. In view of what has been promised were Russia consecrated according to Heaven’s Peace Plan, we should by now have seen more hopeful signs of its conversion. I tried to find a link, but I could not find any. So I typed it on Word first, and here it is:

[size=3]This publication has been relentless in its piling up of evidence that the so-called “Consecration of Russia” in 1984 – a ceremony which deliberately omitted any *mention *of Russia – has not only failed to produce Russia’s conversion, but has resulted in a “Fatima Curse,” evincing Heaven’s wrath over the failure to do what Our Lady requested. But we have no intention of letting up. The consequence of failing to heed Our Lady’s request have been disastrous, and we must not allow the record to be closed.

The latest piece of evidence to be added to the mountain already compiled is a report by Bloomberg News on August 23, 2005, which begins with this assessment: Russians, whose lives are shorter and poorer than they were under communism, have more abortions than births to avoid the costs of raising children, according to the country’s highest-ranking obstetrician.”

The report notes that “about 1.6 million [Russian] women had an abortion last year, a fifth of them under the age of 18, and about 1.5 million gave birth, said Vladimir Kulakov, vice president of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. ‘Many more’ abortions weren’t reported.” Kulakov added: “The appearance of a first child pushes many families into poverty….Potential parents first try to start a career, stand on their feet and so forth.”

Aside from the manifest apostasy of the Russian people, what accounts for the rise in abortion since the 1984 “consecration”? According to the *Bloomberg *report, “The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 and the ensuing hyperinflation and depression deprived millions of Russians of their incomes and savings and discouraged couples from having children. By 2000, the number of pensioners in Europe’s most populous country outnumbered children and adolescents for the first time.”

Since the “fall of communism,” notes Bloomberg, “the increase in poverty and the decline in the quality of health care … have left about six million women and 4 million men – 7 percent of Russia’s 145 million people – incapable of having children.” Meanwhile, the average monthly wage in Russia “is about $300 and one in four people live below the poverty line.”

And the Russian population is declining as the infant mortality rate goes up: “For every 1,000 Russians there are 16 deaths and just 10.6 births, a gap that isn’t being filled by immigrants, leading to a population decline of about 750,000 to 800,000 a year. Out of every 1,000 Russian newborn babies, more than 12 die before they are one year old, an infant mortality rate five times higher than in Iceland and three to four times higher than in Finland, Sweden, Spain and France, Russia’s Federal Statistics Service reported last week.”

That’s not all. The average Russian man now dies at 58.8, “the shortest life expectancy in Europe and five years fewer than 15 years ago, the Statistics Service said.”

It is nothing short of blasphemy to attribute the condition of Russia today to the miraculous intervention of the Blessed Virgin Mary in 1984, as the promoters of the consecration-that-wasn’t would have us believe. The Pope and the bishops have refused to do the simple thing Our Lady requested, offering instead a “diplomatic” human substitute. And Heaven has given its answer to their deliberate evasion of Heaven’s command.

[/size]


#19

To Della
First of all, Fatima is an approved apparition. That means the Church thought it important enough to look into the matter and decided that it truly WAS Our Lady.

What would be the point in determining the authenticity of an apparition if no heed would be paid to the message brought by Mary?

Second, countless popes have tried to consecrate Russia since Fatima. If they didnt think that much of it, why did they bother?

Third, you are being very harsh to Sr Lucia. She has been nothing but obedient to the various popes throughout the years! Also, I think you need to recognize just how much of the bible was written by/talking about “seers”.

Fourthly, who said im taking the word of the Church to be wrong.? Im taking the word of high ranking people within the Church to be very suspicious, thats all. I cannot see how logically, anyone doesnt find something suspicous about the apparent turn around in Sr Lucia’s mindframe. First of all she says it had not been enough and maintains that the consecration in 1984 did NOT suffice. Then suddenly she writes a random letter, saying specifically that she does think it sufficed, and a long list of the other times when it had not sufficed. A very strange letter indeed (Sungenis claims it a forgery proven by a forensic analyst who determined that the signature was different to others), although i am wary of pronouncing such a statement myself, no one can deny the confusion that has ensued regarding the letter.

We have all been infected with the errors of Russia, It is not uncommon to see Catholics promoting ideas that were condemned time and again by previous popes. The focus on ecumenism by JPII was way off base. At Assisi he should have been focusing on converting the people from their pagan Gods, instead he invited them to pray to their Gods for world peace. Peace that would have come, incidentally, from a consecration to Russia to Mary.

Im not sure i need a long chat with my confessor. It seems to me that corruption is rife at every level of the Church. Im not sure how we plan on retaining the true message of the Church when our leader is set out asking other religions to pray for world peace to their false Gods. Liberals are swarming round. From what i have seen and read the New Mass is an appaling result from a liberal push in the sixties. 6 Protestants ( I think ) were consulted about the New Mass, and it now resembles more a protestant mass. I think communion in the hand is wrong and although “allowed” has devalued and degraded the mystery surrounding the Eucharist. People chew it as a sweet, reaching back in their mouth to unlodge bits of it which get stuck, just a short prayer after recieving the Eucharist is said. I used to play in the choir at my local Church and one of the players used to mock the priest throughout the mass (because of his foreign accent). All the people I know from that Church are Catholic by name, in fact all Catholics I know are Catholic by name only. Not once have i seen any of them trying to lead a good and holy life.

What someone said above is true, the great apostasy will not come from Catholics leaving Catholicism. It will come from Satan getting power in high places in the Church and promoting the wrong ideas. False Ecumenism seems to have been promoted by JPII and his recent predecessors. What on earth was behind CHANGING the mass>? To please the protestants? Since 1960’s all we have seen is a degredation of society, a general leaving of the faith, if not formally. Lukewarm Catholics picking and choosing what to believe, liturgy abuses, gay priests (i.e open and proud about it), liberal priests, liberal theology promoting the idea that hell is just a place for really bad people, and hell probably doesnt exist. We are missing it all, especially when people think its just “another bout” that the Church is going through.

YES the Church has got through things like this before BUT >It never changed the mass before >It never adopted a new stance on heretics > It never had the popes directly disobeying a simple request from Our Lady > It never had morals degrade so such a level that killing has become legal! >It never had Catholics recieve the body of Christ with little respect for it, many believing it is just a symbol of Christ > It never had worldwide disasters on such a scale > It never had world wars as a direct result of the disobedience to Our Lady. > It never had liberals in control of the Church AND > It never had such a LUKEWARM faith practiced by nearly ALL in the Church.These new liberals seek only to promote the agenda for this life, with little to no regard for the eternal one. Where is our beacon of hope, our rock to stand on? Benedict XVI, have stength to dispel the liberals from our midst and return the Church to its former glory. Be not afraid of those who can harm the body, but those who can harm the body AND the spirit!

In Christ.

Andre.


#20

TNT I think your signature sums it up beautifully.

When Christ returns, will he find faith on the planet?

In Him

Andre.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.