Vatican & Lutheran Agreement


#1

"…Different understandings of the doctrine of justification
were key factors in events that led to the Protestant
Reformation, separating Lutherans and Catholics for nearly 500
years. With the Joint Declaration, the Lutheran World Federation
(LWF) and The Vatican agreed to a common understanding of the
doctrine of justification and declared that certain 16th century
condemnations of each other no longer apply. The LWF is a global communion of 138 member churches in 77 countries, representing nearly 65 million Lutherans.

 Pope John Paul II described the Joint Declaration as a

“milestone,” Kasper said. “The image fits the situation
exactly,” he said. “We have reached an important staging post
but are not yet at the final goal. The Joint Declaration is
important even though it has limits. Its greatness lies in the
fact that we can now give joint witness to what is at the heart
of our faith, and with this common witness we enter together a
new century and a new millennium.”

 The increasingly secularized world "needs such common

witness," Kasper declared.

 Kasper pointed out that the Joint Declaration does not

address other “problems” that remain between Protestants and
Catholics. Those questions include understandings of “simul
iustus et peccator,” a Lutheran doctrine that enables a believer
to be justified and sinner at the same time; cooperation; how to
speak about “merits”; and the central “normativity” of the
doctrine of justification, he said. The Joint Declaration
represents what Kasper called “differentiated consensus rather
than total agreement.” Lutherans and Catholics are continuing in
an international theological dialogue on many questions.

It is not possible for Lutherans to commune in most Roman
Catholic congregations, a point Hanson raised in an audience with
Pope John Paul II at the Vatican last year. ELCA congregations
generally welcome all who believe in Jesus Christ and are
baptized to participate in Holy Communion.

wfn.org/2004/10/msg00055.html


#2

Mortalium Animos


#3

[quote=beng3000]Mortalium Animos
[/quote]

and your point is?


#4

Luthearn? Does anyone on this board know how to spell? It’s Lutheran!


#5

The distance between Lutherans and Catholics in that amicable document is still wide enough to sail the Seventh Fleet through . . .


#6

[quote=vstar]Luthearn? Does anyone on this board know how to spell? It’s Lutheran!
[/quote]

Actually I do - it was a typo - spelling I have mastered, typing is tougher. I don’t know about you, but I’m still working on the “perfecting” of self.


#7

[quote=mercygate]The distance between Lutherans and Catholics in that amicable document is still wide enough to sail the Seventh Fleet through . . .
[/quote]

:slight_smile:


#8

[quote=mercygate]The distance between Lutherans and Catholics in that amicable document is still wide enough to sail the Seventh Fleet through . . .
[/quote]

Yes, but Catholics will come around sooner or later. It took you 450 years, but you finally accepted that preaching in the people’s native language instead of Latin is a good idea. After 482 years you have the justification thing down. So, with 93 thesis left, at this rate …:wink:

MartyL


#9

[quote=MartyL]Yes, but Catholics will come around sooner or later. It took you 450 years, but you finally accepted that preaching in the people’s native language instead of Latin is a good idea. After 482 years you have the justification thing down. So, with 93 thesis left, at this rate …:wink:

MartyL
[/quote]

:rotfl:


#10

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty certain that the actual “preaching” part of the Mass was always done in the native language, rather than Latin. I’m pretty sure I remember my mother telling me that. And personally, I wish that the rest of it had remained the same. The original intent of having it all in one language was that a person would be able to travel all over the world and still hear and participate in the same Mass. It’s not like it wasn’t understood. My mom went to Catholic school when the Mass was still in Latin and she said all of the students were taught the meaning of each part of the Mass and understood the Latin very well. But now, if those same students were to go to a Mass in France, they would be totally lost. I think changing the language placed a huge divide between Catholics all over the world. Now it is no longer possible (well, likely) that Catholics from different countries can worship together. And that is sad because there is supposed to be something called Christian Unity.

[quote=MartyL]Yes, but Catholics will come around sooner or later. It took you 450 years, but you finally accepted that preaching in the people’s native language instead of Latin is a good idea. After 482 years you have the justification thing down. So, with 93 thesis left, at this rate …:wink:

MartyL
[/quote]


#11

Actually, the Catholic position on justification has never changed. Faith and Works have always been needed. If any changing was done, it was the Lutherans that changed, not us.

[quote=MartyL]Yes, but Catholics will come around sooner or later. It took you 450 years, but you finally accepted that preaching in the people’s native language instead of Latin is a good idea. After 482 years you have the justification thing down. So, with 93 thesis left, at this rate …:wink:
[/quote]


#12

[quote=MartyL]Yes, but Catholics will come around sooner or later. It took you 450 years, but you finally accepted that preaching in the people’s native language instead of Latin is a good idea. After 482 years you have the justification thing down. So, with 93 thesis left, at this rate …:wink:

MartyL
[/quote]

It’s my understanding that the Lutheran’s returned to the truth on this dogma. :hmmm:


#13

[quote=MartyL]Yes, but Catholics will come around sooner or later. It took you 450 years, but you finally accepted that preaching in the people’s native language instead of Latin is a good idea. After 482 years you have the justification thing down. So, with 93 thesis left, at this rate …:wink:

MartyL
[/quote]

:rotfl:

Hope springs eternal…


#14

[quote=ContraFool]Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty certain that the actual “preaching” part of the Mass was always done in the native language, rather than Latin. I’m pretty sure I remember my mother telling me that. And personally, I wish that the rest of it had remained the same. The original intent of having it all in one language was that a person would be able to travel all over the world and still hear and participate in the same Mass. It’s not like it wasn’t understood. My mom went to Catholic school when the Mass was still in Latin and she said all of the students were taught the meaning of each part of the Mass and understood the Latin very well. But now, if those same students were to go to a Mass in France, they would be totally lost. I think changing the language placed a huge divide between Catholics all over the world. Now it is no longer possible (well, likely) that Catholics from different countries can worship together. And that is sad because there is supposed to be something called Christian Unity.
[/quote]

The homily (similiar to a “sermon”) has always been in the vernacular for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass…


#15

[quote=MartyL]Yes, but Catholics will come around sooner or later. It took you 450 years, but you finally accepted that preaching in the people’s native language instead of Latin is a good idea. After 482 years you have the justification thing down. So, with 93 thesis left, at this rate …:wink: MartyL
[/quote]

Hmmm… I know you’re joking, but just to set the record straight, use of the vernacular was not one of the theses.

And, taking a quick glance at the 95 theses, I don’t see much problem with these for a start:

  1. God remits guilt to no one unless at the same time he humbles him in all things and makes him submissive to the vicar, the priest.

  2. Nevertheless, papal remission and blessing are by no means to be disregarded, for they are, as I have said (Thesis 6), the proclamation of the divine remission.

  3. Papal indulgences must be preached with caution, lest people erroneously think that they are preferable to other good works of love.


#16

We have reformed the church as was much Luther’s wishes and most of the 95 thesis has been adhered to in the catholic church. However teh catholic view on salvation has not change the Lutheran church has moved closer to us the catholic church did not give an inch in regards to the Agreement and both sides are still in disagreement on the roles of works in our salvation. The catholic church has alway preached we are saved by grace through Christ alone Luther in his rage refused to acknowledge that. Trent affirmed that and so does this document. Both churches have thrown away the hyperbole of the polemeics of the middle ages and have looked at the issue anew and now realize that in many ways the two sides were talking past each other and agreed more than they though originally but there are still significant disagreemtns on justification for their to be a full reconcilliation.


#17

[quote=Crusader]The homily (similiar to a “sermon”) has always been in the vernacular for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass…
[/quote]

Thanks much, that is what I thought.


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