View of Traditional Catholics on Protestants


#1

I'm not sure how to state this question, so bear with me if I don't word this in the right way: Traditional Catholics, is your view of Protestants/Protestantism different from that of Novus Ordo Catholics?

I've seen more of a harsh attitude toward Protestants/Protestantism since my brother/sister-in-law became involved in a Latin Rite Catholic church several years ago. (They tend to be pretty critical of Novus Ordo masses and many post-Vatican II church practices as well. Prior to their involvement in Traditional Catholicism, I never heard them criticize any RCC Novus Ordo or post-Vatican II practices.)

Although officially they say that they agree with the RCC that Protestants are "separated brethren," I certainly don't feel like they have been very respectful in how they speak of my Protestant church, its customs, etc. Although my brother has always tended to be more on the hard-line side of things, my sister-in-law was not. But things have changed, and I can't help but feel that perhaps it is coming from the teaching of the Traditional priests and the views of their fellow parishioners.

My brother's family is involved in a Priestly Fraternity of St Peter parish.


#2

I attend an EF/OF (ie, Latin Mass/English Mass) parish. I tend to avoid the Latin Mass, however, because I haven't had great experiences with traditionalists, both in online forums and also in person at my church. On Fr. John Zuhlsdorf's blog, What Does the Prayer Really Say?, this issue is discussed sometimes, so I know I'm not the only one who has found Latin Mass communities to be offputting. So, I guess I'd say your experience is not unique.

It's hard to say WHY this is. I suspect it's not so much the priests they are listening to per se as much as it is just their own personal attitudes, which are being fed by others with the same attitudes. In fairness to the Latin Mass people, the "new" Mass HAS led to lots of abuses and foolishness. I think it's been a large part of why so many people doubt the Real Presence of God in the Eucharist and why so many people feel that they can show up to Mass looking sloppy, or not bother showing up at all. And in fairness to them also, the Latin Mass IS the original Mass of the Catholic Church. I know the OF is valid, but I understand why alot of Latin Mass people feel that the EF is more authentic. I feel incredibly blessed that I can assist in (ie, attend) an OF Mass that is a very close interpretation of the EF.

At any rate...sorry you're having this problem with your brother. That must be difficult. Will keep your petitions in prayer.


#3

Being more traditionaly minded myself, I think I can offer some insight.

Many Popes have taught that ecumenicalism and worshiping/having faith based activities with other faiths was dangerous. I’m a little rusty, but I think the idea is that Catholics could be drawn into heresy. Of course, working to convert them is another thing. Anyhoo, this line of thought tends to be held by the more traditional.

Another factor is the idea that Protestants, while seperated brothers, can be seen as traitors to the Church. Think of the Civil War if you will. Of course, at least in my case, this type of speach only comes up around religious topics. Most of my friends are non-Catholics and we get along fine. However, when they start bringing up doctrine I become rather “blunt.” To be sure traditionalists don’t hate the Protestants themselves, just the faith they profess and the “protest” that has lasted centuries. We want all to come to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church for the sake of their souls.


#4

[quote="Metamorphoo, post:1, topic:280611"]
I'm not sure how to state this question, so bear with me if I don't word this in the right way: Traditional Catholics, is your view of Protestants/Protestantism different from that of Novus Ordo Catholics?

I've seen more of a harsh attitude toward Protestants/Protestantism since my brother/sister-in-law became involved in a Latin Rite Catholic church several years ago. (They tend to be pretty critical of Novus Ordo masses and many post-Vatican II church practices as well. Prior to their involvement in Traditional Catholicism, I never heard them criticize any RCC Novus Ordo or post-Vatican II practices.)

Although officially they say that they agree with the RCC that Protestants are "separated brethren," I certainly don't feel like they have been very respectful in how they speak of my Protestant church, its customs, etc. Although my brother has always tended to be more on the hard-line side of things, my sister-in-law was not. But things have changed, and I can't help but feel that perhaps it is coming from the teaching of the Traditional priests and the views of their fellow parishioners.

My brother's family is involved in a Priestly Fraternity of St Peter parish.

[/quote]

They are going through a phase. We all get a little overboard at times.

You might remind them of the commandment of Jesus to love our enemies, those with whom we are not in harmony.

I guess I would be classified a traditionalist. I have genuine and deep friendships with all kinds of people, Protestants, atheists, Muslims, etc.

You might also ask them what it is they wish, what is the most ardent hope for the people they are not in theological agreement with. For all Christians, we hope for heaven for all souls, eternal union with God. I am sure that is what they hope for Protestants.

If that is the case how should they go about helping achieve it?


#5

[quote="Imperial_Guard, post:3, topic:280611"]
Being more traditionaly minded myself, I think I can offer some insight.

Many Popes have taught that ecumenicalism and worshiping/having faith based activities with other faiths was dangerous. I'm a little rusty, but I think the idea is that Catholics could be drawn into heresy. Of course, working to convert them is another thing. Anyhoo, this line of thought tends to be held by the more traditional.

Another factor is the idea that Protestants, while seperated brothers, can be seen as traitors to the Church. Think of the Civil War if you will. Of course, at least in my case, this type of speach only comes up around religious topics. Most of my friends are non-Catholics and we get along fine. However, when they start bringing up doctrine I become rather "blunt." To be sure traditionalists don't hate the Protestants themselves, just the faith they profess and the "protest" that has lasted centuries. We want all to come to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church for the sake of their souls.

[/quote]

I don't doubt it. But I wish Catholic traditionalists would realize that kind of criticism does nothing at all to win us over, but rather hardens hearts against them.


#6

[quote="Imperial_Guard, post:3, topic:280611"]
Being more traditionaly minded myself, I think I can offer some insight.

Many Popes have taught that ecumenicalism and worshiping/having faith based activities with other faiths was dangerous. I'm a little rusty, but I think the idea is that Catholics could be drawn into heresy. Of course, working to convert them is another thing. Anyhoo, this line of thought tends to be held by the more traditional.

Another factor is the idea that Protestants, while seperated brothers, can be seen as traitors to the Church. Think of the Civil War if you will. Of course, at least in my case, this type of speach only comes up around religious topics. Most of my friends are non-Catholics and we get along fine. However, when they start bringing up doctrine I become rather "blunt." To be sure traditionalists don't hate the Protestants themselves, just the faith they profess and the "protest" that has lasted centuries. We want all to come to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church for the sake of their souls.

[/quote]

With all due respect, is this a typo? - "To be sure traditionalists don't hate the Protestants themselves, just the faith they profess"


#7

It's hard to say WHY this is. I suspect it's not so much the priests they are listening to per se as much as it is just their own personal attitudes, which are being fed by others with the same attitudes. In fairness to the Latin Mass people, the "new" Mass HAS led to lots of abuses and foolishness. I think it's been a large part of why so many people doubt the Real Presence of God in the Eucharist and why so many people feel that they can show up to Mass looking sloppy, or not bother showing up at all. And in fairness to them also, the Latin Mass IS the original Mass of the Catholic Church. I know the OF is valid, but I understand why alot of Latin Mass people feel that the EF is more authentic. I feel incredibly blessed that I can assist in (ie, attend) an OF Mass that is a very close interpretation of the EF.
http://www.spgames.info/g.gif


#8

I am sure that is what they hope for Protestants.
http://www.interbankforex.info/g.gif


#9

Have no issue with them. I'm of the opinion these are very good Christians seeking Christ. The issue I see is many good souls are trapped off by a specific theological belief of specific individuals. At this point instead of investing to research with an open-mind, they assume what they are hearing is the Objective Truth.

At this point many different situations occur. Some which are not at all of track with the ecumenical councils and hold to the 7th. Others which linger around the 4th, and some are pure fiction and heresy following history not one iota.

The individuals become of issue when they in all boldness start proclaiming there belief as the only truth while ignoring Historic Facts in Christianity dating to the period of Christ and His Apostles. Then extend to the point of pride in spewing harsh words and throwing poison darts in use of terms such as. cult, demonic etc. Which become's counter-productive to Christianity as a whole. And obviously confusing for good souls seeking Christ.

For an individual to go from alcohol, drugs, crime etc. to say [for example] the "Baptist Church" is a Blessing. Which can viewed in no other way in truth. This mindset is great and the path of salvation.

The issue resides when they put a few pounds on, get back in human race and begin feeling full of themselves again. Then determine in all there wisdom, all other Christians are destined for hell. When in truth God himself in Divine Mercy dragged their sorry self to the front of that Baptist Church and dropped them off.

I find some of the foaming at the mouth speech's of rhetoric actually funny. I should start filming and posting some of the stumbles of these oral wizards.

Peace, May the Lords Divine Mercy always shine upon you. Patience is the virtue which surrounds all others. Pride is a state of mind which is directly opposed to humility. How quickly we change direction in the two.


#10

@Bix

Well, I suppose better wording is in order. What I meant was that traditionalists don't (or shouldn't) have any poor feelings against individual Protestants for the sake that they are Protestant. Simply, they would dislike the faith that has seperated them from The Church and aided in the spread of relativism.


#11

If a person loves truth and believes his religion is true then it is natural to defend truth against error and want to destroy error, that which is false. Another way to put that is if one loves truth one must hate error.

There is only one reason to belong to any religion, or Christian denomination. That is you believe its doctrines to be true.

When Christians who are divided, because they believe contradicting doctrines, dialogue or interact about religious matters, the interaction could either be acrimoniious and full or rancor, or it could be in humility, kindness and love.

Either way both parties could be well intentioned toward the other. If a Mormon wants to convert me to Mormonism it is, because he believes his religion is true and wants me to have the benefit of the good he believes I will find there. He does not want my harm, but my good.

Implicit in the conversation would be the fact that we both believe what the other believes is false.

I am Catholic, because I believe the doctrines of the Catholic Church are true. Implicit in that statement is I believe Protestant doctrines, whatever they are, and I realize there is no one body of doctrine all Protestants hold, but they are in disagreement with one another on many things, are false.

Why is it so important that what we believe doctrinally is true, that our beliefs are in harmony with spiritual truths? Believing error leads to harm, great harm. The foundation if western civilization is Christianity, the Christian religion. The reason there are so many social ills, epidemic divorce, addictions, perversions, violence, decaying cities is our civilzation has abandoned the fundamental understanding of truth revealed by God and become secular. In fact it has banned Christian religion from the public forum thinking that God Himself has no right to impose His law on His people.

How did this happen? It came about, because of disunity and confusion about spiritual truths, and that is the result of the fracturing of Christendom into thousands of seperated pieces, against the commandment of Christ that His disciples be one, and of Paul who commanded us to be of one mind and agree on all things.

This is the consequence of error. It is a disaster for the Church and Christian people. The Lord's vineyard is ravaged.

The remedy for Christian disunity is not hostility. It is following the commandments of Jesus when He rells us to love one another and pray for one another.

Nevertheless we should hate error and seek truth.

I am not offended when Protestants believe or assert that Catholic doctrine is false. If they did not believe that they would be Catholic. It is nothing personal. A Baptist minister told me no denomination has all of its doctrines correct. This man councilled young women that it was ok to abort their babies. He said any denomination that asserted all of its doctrines are correct is arrogant. This is not only against what Jesus promised in scripture, to lead His Church into all truth, but it is irrational. I asked him which of the doctrines he and other Baptists believe are false. At first he looked at me as if I were an idiot. He said if he knew which of his doctrines were false he would not believe them. I said, if you do not know which of your doctrines are false, but do know some are, then neither do you know which are true. This is confusion. Yet he sets himself up as a shepherd of souls and he admits he does not know what truth is.

When we discussed truth, he condescendingly said my Church believes it knows truth. I agreed. He said my Church thinks it knows truth. I agreed. he said my Church says it knows truth. I agreed. He becamse exasperated. He said what is truth. I said ask Pilot. If you don't know and are a spiritual leader how can you guide people?

I do not hate this man, or despise him. His religion and he have caused harm to souls. Of course he claims the doctrines of his religion are all from the Bible. My hope for him is the same as my hope for myself, that we both find mercy, but he believes he has a lock on it.


#12

I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but only that the wicked turn from his way and live.


#13

[quote="grandfather, post:11, topic:280611"]
If a person loves truth and believes his religion is true then it is natural to defend truth against error and want to destroy error, that which is false. Another way to put that is if one loves truth one must hate error.

There is only one reason to belong to any religion, or Christian denomination. That is you believe its doctrines to be true.

When Christians who are divided, because they believe contradicting doctrines, dialogue or interact about religious matters, the interaction could either be acrimoniious and full or rancor, or it could be in humility, kindness and love.

Either way both parties could be well intentioned toward the other. If a Mormon wants to convert me to Mormonism it is, because he believes his religion is true and wants me to have the benefit of the good he believes I will find there. He does not want my harm, but my good.

Implicit in the conversation would be the fact that we both believe what the other believes is false.

I am Catholic, because I believe the doctrines of the Catholic Church are true. Implicit in that statement is I believe Protestant doctrines, whatever they are, and I realize there is no one body of doctrine all Protestants hold, but they are in disagreement with one another on many things, are false.

Why is it so important that what we believe doctrinally is true, that our beliefs are in harmony with spiritual truths? Believing error leads to harm, great harm. The foundation if western civilization is Christianity, the Christian religion. The reason there are so many social ills, epidemic divorce, addictions, perversions, violence, decaying cities is our civilzation has abandoned the fundamental understanding of truth revealed by God and become secular. In fact it has banned Christian religion from the public forum thinking that God Himself has no right to impose His law on His people.

How did this happen? It came about, because of disunity and confusion about spiritual truths, and that is the result of the fracturing of Christendom into thousands of seperated pieces, against the commandment of Christ that His disciples be one, and of Paul who commanded us to be of one mind and agree on all things.

This is the consequence of error. It is a disaster for the Church and Christian people. The Lord's vineyard is ravaged.

The remedy for Christian disunity is not hostility. It is following the commandments of Jesus when He rells us to love one another and pray for one another.

Nevertheless we should hate error and seek truth.

I am not offended when Protestants believe or assert that Catholic doctrine is false. If they did not believe that they would be Catholic. It is nothing personal. A Baptist minister told me no denomination has all of its doctrines correct. This man councilled young women that it was ok to abort their babies. He said any denomination that asserted all of its doctrines are correct is arrogant. This is not only against what Jesus promised in scripture, to lead His Church into all truth, but it is irrational. I asked him which of the doctrines he and other Baptists believe are false. At first he looked at me as if I were an idiot. He said if he knew which of his doctrines were false he would not believe them. I said, if you do not know which of your doctrines are false, but do know some are, then neither do you know which are true. This is confusion. Yet he sets himself up as a shepherd of souls and he admits he does not know what truth is.

When we discussed truth, he condescendingly said my Church believes it knows truth. I agreed. He said my Church thinks it knows truth. I agreed. he said my Church says it knows truth. I agreed. He becamse exasperated. He said what is truth. I said ask Pilot. If you don't know and are a s[piritual leader how can you guide people?

I do not hate this man, or despise him. His religion and he have caused harm to souls. Of course he claims the doctrines of his religion are all from the Bible. My hope for him is the same as my hope for myself, that we both find mercy, but he believes he has a lock on it.

[/quote]

Excelent post!:clapping:
[/quote]


#14

Incredible post. Very eloquently and charitably put.
[/quote]


#15

I just want to convert them.


#16

[quote="Metamorphoo, post:1, topic:280611"]
I'm not sure how to state this question, so bear with me if I don't word this in the right way: Traditional Catholics, is your view of Protestants/Protestantism different from that of Novus Ordo Catholics?

I've seen more of a harsh attitude toward Protestants/Protestantism since my brother/sister-in-law became involved in a Latin Rite Catholic church several years ago. (They tend to be pretty critical of Novus Ordo masses and many post-Vatican II church practices as well. Prior to their involvement in Traditional Catholicism, I never heard them criticize any RCC Novus Ordo or post-Vatican II practices.)

Although officially they say that they agree with the RCC that Protestants are "separated brethren," I certainly don't feel like they have been very respectful in how they speak of my Protestant church, its customs, etc. Although my brother has always tended to be more on the hard-line side of things, my sister-in-law was not. But things have changed, and I can't help but feel that perhaps it is coming from the teaching of the Traditional priests and the views of their fellow parishioners.

My brother's family is involved in a Priestly Fraternity of St Peter parish.

[/quote]

I don't think it is ever appropriate to have a harsh attitude to anyone who does not share the same faith. Even if you intentions are simply to convert or share your love for your own faith. You should never be harsh or rude. This not only makes you look personally like a judgmental crazy person, but it negatively reflects the church. If you find yourself constantly negatively commenting to anyone Protestant, Atheist or anything, i think you need to turn your face to the King of Peace and seek some humility. It hurts my heart to know that there are Catholics who are not loving to people of all faiths.

In fact, the only reason why I converted was because I had friends who were very devoted, loving Catholics, who never negatively said anything about my own strange "faith". I constantly asked them questions about the Catholics beliefs and traditions, and they answered with complete honesty, making all attempts to not offend me. I am lucky to experience the best of examples of Catholics, other wise I would have just turn an ran.

I hope everyone takes a personal lesson. Just because your friends do not match your faith, does not mean you cannot be friends. Sometimes being a great example of a true Catholic, is enough for them to at least not have a negative view on the church, and that in itself is a great start.


#17

[quote="mrscarrera, post:16, topic:280611"]
I don't think it is ever appropriate to have a harsh attitude to anyone who does not share the same faith. Even if you intentions are simply to convert or share your love for your own faith. You should never be harsh or rude. This not only makes you look personally like a judgmental crazy person, but it negatively reflects the church. ...
I hope everyone takes a personal lesson. Just because your friends do not match your faith, does not mean you cannot be friends. Sometimes being a great example of a true Catholic, is enough for them to at least not have a negative view on the church, and that in itself is a great start.

[/quote]

Thanks for your post. I decided to contact my brother/sis-in-law and tell them that their words and attitude had caused offense. I received an apology, and I felt it was sincere.

You are right in saying that harsh words/unkind attitudes from Catholics will only leave a non-Catholic with a negative view of the Catholic Church. Of course, that principle is true in all relationships, not just those between a Catholic and non-Catholic.


#18

Great that you told them how you felt and gave them the opportunity to apologize! No doubt your relationship will be even better than before.


#19

[quote="mrscarrera, post:16, topic:280611"]
I don't think it is ever appropriate to have a harsh attitude to anyone who does not share the same faith. Even if you intentions are simply to convert or share your love for your own faith. You should never be harsh or rude. This not only makes you look personally like a judgmental crazy person, but it negatively reflects the church. If you find yourself constantly negatively commenting to anyone Protestant, Atheist or anything, i think you need to turn your face to the King of Peace and seek some humility. It hurts my heart to know that there are Catholics who are not loving to people of all faiths.

In fact, the only reason why I converted was because I had friends who were very devoted, loving Catholics, who never negatively said anything about my own strange "faith". I constantly asked them questions about the Catholics beliefs and traditions, and they answered with complete honesty, making all attempts to not offend me. I am lucky to experience the best of examples of Catholics, other wise I would have just turn an ran.

I hope everyone takes a personal lesson. Just because your friends do not match your faith, does not mean you cannot be friends. Sometimes being a great example of a true Catholic, is enough for them to at least not have a negative view on the church, and that in itself is a great start.

[/quote]

I have had very many dialogues with non-Catholics. A very few of them became Catholic as a result. I can recall one discussion where I became exasperrated by the irrationality of a man.

My experience is that winning or losing arguments lead to few conversions. It is the witness of love that draws people to the Church. This is why the scandals caused so much harm. They drove people away from truth in faith.

If someone is committed to their religion and they can not defend some of its doctrine, or answer some challenge to it, all that means is they did not have the answer. It does not mean there is no answer.

It is the power of love that conquers objections.

This is not only true of person to person interaction, but God to man.

We sinners are afraid of God. We hide from Him, like Adam and Eve. We hide our nakedness. We are ashamed and keep hidden away the secrets of our guilt. We turn to God when we realize we are loved and it is God's love that converts us. We see it not in what we feel, but what He did. Alleluia!

So we call Him Redeemer, Savior, Lord.

It is not having the theological truth of the Trinity explained, or knowing that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin in a cave, or understanding correctly how justification works. What converts us, what demolishes the walls and barriers within us, built by fear, is the astonishing news that we are loved. So we call Jesus a conquering king. The force with which He overcomes His enemies is divine love.

If we hope to be part of establishing His Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven then we must do the same as He does, take up our cross and follow Him in love.

If Protestants and Catholics despise one another in His name we bring Him no honor. Instead we bring Him shame. They know we are Christians by...........


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