Violence in the old testament

Hi, I was wondering if this guy’s explanation regarding violence in the Old Testament would in any way conflict with Catholic theology or anything. I need good reasons to answer peopel on why God was so violent in the Old Testament, and I haven’t found any good answers on Catholic.com, and this guy’s answer seems pretty good. I know hes not Catholic, but is it Catholically accurate? he doesn’t seem to say anything contradictory to our faith. Please help.

youtube.com/watch?v=taYhbRm6pnU

Thanks,
Snakemauler

I didn’t hear anything necessarily heretical, but I think I’ve read from Alice von Hildebrand that murder is immoral for any person and this speaker (John Piper) is saying it was ok for Joshua to murder “in that circumstance” because he was God’s instrument (not because they had to be at war or in self-defense or such). If I can find Alice’s piece, I’ll post it—it has more detail than I recall.

At any rate, yesterday, I just heard John Piper, basically say the Pope is a heretic as part of the same interview you posted.

I have always struggled with the same thing, but while reading the Old Testament this morning, I came to a realization.

The people that God allowed to be killed in the Old Testament were those who had no belief in Him, who the Bible says in many cases “hated God,” and who had no repentence. Many of these were sacrificing their children, drinking the blood of animals, killing each other, raping, and many other horrible crimes. I have not found a single instance in the Bible where a people asked for forgiveness, and God allowed them to be killed any way. When Joshua went to war in Jericho, Rahab was allowed to live and save her whole family because of her repentance.

When Moses gives the Israelites God’s Law, those who commit great crimes with evil in their hearts are ordered to be killed. God tells the Israelites that this is to protect the rest from this evil. It seems to me that God was protecting the faithful from the evil of the rest.

Still working through this, but it was a glimmer of an answer this morning as I was reading.

Everything in context. People in those days lived a harsher life than we have over the last thousand years (especially the last 50 or so). I can’t speak for our Lord but I believe God may have allowed these things to happen because it was what worked for that time.

The birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the pinnacle of human history. Everything that preceded His birth occurred to prepare the world to receive Him and hear His message.

God chose an insignificant tribe, the Israelites, and revealed to them His will that they might receive His Son. He covenanted with them: I will be your God; you will be my people.

The genocides of the Old Testament commanded by God protected the Israelites from being absorbed into neighboring pagan societies whose practices, infanticide among others, were anathema to the Lord.

We should not confuse God’s social or Divine Law commands of the Old Testament with his Eternal or moral commands, e.g. Ten Commandments. The social commands were for a particular purpose at a particular time. The Eternal commands are for all people for all times.

As it turns out even with the divine interventions protecting the Israelites from extinction, the remnant of God’s chosen people left who recognized His Son were but a few – however, they were enough.

Here’s a couple other comments on “Old Testament God” violence by apologist Jimmy Akin if that helps.

From CAL.
From his blog #1.
From his blog #2.

=SnakeMauler;6653418]Hi, I was wondering if this guy’s explanation regarding violence in the Old Testament would in any way conflict with Catholic theology or anything. I need good reasons to answer peopel on why God was so violent in the Old Testament, and I haven’t found any good answers on Catholic.com, and this guy’s answer seems pretty good. I know hes not Catholic, but is it Catholically accurate? he doesn’t seem to say anything contradictory to our faith. Please help.

youtube.com/watch?v=taYhbRm6pnU

Thanks,
Snakemauler

My dear friend in Christ,

In every single instance of “extreme violence” ordered by Yahweh there were alway and everytime to reasons present:

Perservation of the Faith God was introducing to His Choses People

Annialtation of false beleifs and mutiple gods by the very same people God COMMANDED be exterminated.

The issue rested with these people of many gods, but the REAL issue was preventing the polution of THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE ONE TRUE FAITH.

Keep in mind this was very early in the belief process and contimanation of beliefs was spread though contact, as there was no other way.

Love and prayers,
Pat

So basically God had to wipe out the majority of the disgusting people in the world to assure the isrealites survival and prepare for Jesus’s coming? That would make sense. I think the last people who were anything near like the sickos in the Old Testament were the Aztecs. They got wiped out by like 150 Spanish people in the 1500’s.

=SnakeMauler;6654703]So basically God had to wipe out the majority of the disgusting people in the world to assure the isrealites survival and prepare for Jesus’s coming? That would make sense. I think the last people who were anything near like the sickos in the Old Testament were the Aztecs. They got wiped out by like 150 Spanish people in the 1500’s.

Yep:thumbsup:

That’s Divine Jutice in action.

You said that God had to ween (wean) the Israelites out of their sick ways, why not wean the other tribes out of their sick ways? Wouldn’t it show how awesome God is to convert the pagans rather than to genocide them?

^^ Some guy said that to me. What should I say?

=SnakeMauler;6657683]You said that God had to ween (wean) the Israelites out of their sick ways, why not wean the other tribes out of their sick ways? Wouldn’t it show how awesome God is to convert the pagans rather than to genocide them?

^^ Some guy said that to me. What should I say?

Because God who can be describes as “all good things perfected” MUST by His own Divine Nature be JUST and Fair.

By virtue of the fact that God has endowed humanity with a mind, intellct, freewill and soul; all Spiritual Things; precisely so we can Know God and chose good and avoid evil. If humanity then chooses to deny God by chosing evil over good; there in Justice MUST BE a price to pay.

God promised the Jewish nation certain lands that were occupied by heathen idol worshipers… BECAUSE GOD BY VIRTUE OF THIS SAME DEVINE JUSTICE MORALLY OBLIGATES HIMSELF TO MAKE SUFFICIENT GRACE AVAILABLE TO EVERY HUMAN PERSON; we can know that God did attempt to convert them and they freely chose to deny Yahweh God and continue there pagan ways.

**Isa.45: 9 **"Woe to him who strives with his Maker,an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, What are you making'? or Your work has no handles’?

God is the “Potter” and His obligation is to ONLY ofer sufficient grace; there is no obligation for Him to do all He did for the Jewish nation; or for that matter all that He has done and is doing for us. We frind are “just caly” in the Potters hands.

Love and prayers,
Pat

Your link is to a long recording.

Could you perhaps just give us some hightlights of what his answer was?

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