Was Harald Camping On to Something Else?


#1

Again, just because Harald Camping said "X" doesn't mean that "X" is untrue. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Another idea that Harald Camping used to aire on Family Radio is that when Christ was on the cross and He wailed, "FATHER, WHY HAVE YOU FORESAKEN ME!!!" He was, with perfect accuracy, reflecting some kind of fundamental change in the communicative dynamics of the divine Trinity -- seeminly impossibly, the Father was somehow "shunning" the Son to cause excruciating divine suffering within Christ, to pay the price exacted by God's Own justice for our salvation.

What do you think?


#2

I have heard it said that Christ's true suffering on the Cross was less to do with the physical pain than with being separated from the Father.

I have no idea how this sits with Catholic theology.


#3

There is a collection of works by Maria Valtorta entitled 'The Poem of The Man-God"

These give us deep insight into the meaning and experience of Christ during His Passion and death. (As well as His entire ministry). There are 5 volumes in total, covering Christ's boyhood through to the Ascension and beyond to the Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven. The works were planned and mystically revealed to Maria who was a victim soul, during her lifetime as a gift to Humanity during mankind's darkest times.

Before I continue I will say the books were not without controversy and the church has been at times divided by them. I would encourage your own research as it is widely reported that they were condemned by the Vatican and this is very far from the truth. Any works of this magnitude are always feared and attacked by hell. This in itself is testimony to the threats they pose to the plans of satan and the potential for many souls to be lead back to God's grace through the reading of them.

A good example of this is The mystery of the Divine Mercy, and its corresponding feast which suffered in the same way before its subsequent triumph. John Paul II who was largely responsible for the Divine Mercy message reaching the world and the instigation of its feast day (arguably the greatest of all the feast days of the catholic calendar after Easter), was a proponent of the books and in favor of them.

Having read them and being one of a rather discerning nature in this regard,. I have absolutely no doubt in their veracity. When you read them your 'heart will burn within you' (luke/24-32), as did mine.

I aso have visited Medjugorje in the former Yugoslavia many many times and in her many volumes of messages to the world through the visionaries their, Our Lady has said that it is 'permissible to read them' if you want to get to know her Son.

Anyhow, Heaven was closed to Christ from Gethsemane onwards, 'His prayers fell on Him like stones'. This separation came from Christ taking on all of our sins (including future sins). The Trinity cannot and will not and never was divided, as each person of the Trinity is one and trine. This is the great mystery of the Trinity that we will never know the depths of.

But was Christ alone on Earth during His passion? Yes alone but for His Blessed mother and the Angel that was sent to comfort Him.. His earthly self in his humanity was entirely separated from heaven by our sins despite himself being sinless. Such is the seriousness of sin. If you desire to know more I would give these books a chance, there is no heresy in them and I believe they give the devout and believing soul the privilege of knowing and sharing hitherto hidden depths of our Lords passion.

God bless you.


#4

It is very depressing to think that Our Lord felt rejected by His Father - but He didn't!

He was quoting the first line of Psalm 22, and might have recited the whole thing if He had the breath and strength.* He wasn't despairing; He was telling us not to despair.

Verses 6-8 and 14-18 prophesy the Passion. Praise begins with v. 23, and salvation is foretold after that, especially in the last two verses.

Psalm 22
To the choirmaster: according to The Hind of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer;
and by night, but find no rest.

3 Yet thou art holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.

4 In thee our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5 To thee they cried, and were saved;
in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm, and no man;
scorned by men, and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock at me,
they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;

8 "He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him,
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"

9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb;
thou didst keep me safe upon my mother's breasts.

10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth,
and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.

11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is none to help.

12 Many bulls encompass me,
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;

13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax,
it is melted within my breast;

15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
thou dost lay me in the dust of death.

16 Yea, dogs are round about me;
a company of evildoers encircle me;
they have pierced my hands and feet --

17 I can count all my bones --
they stare and gloat over me;

18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my raiment they cast lots.

19 But thou, O LORD, be not far off!
O thou my help, hasten to my aid!

20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my life from the power of the dog!

21 Save me from the mouth of the lion,
my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!

22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
all you sons of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted;
and he has not hid his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.

25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will pay before those who fear him.

26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the LORD!
May your hearts live for ever!

27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the LORD;
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before him.

28 For dominion belongs to the LORD,
and he rules over the nations.

29 Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
and he who cannot keep himself alive.

30 Posterity shall serve him;
men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,

31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn,
that he has wrought it.

Psalms 22:1-31 (RSV)

*Hanging by His hands compressed His lungs; the only way for Him to take a good breath was to heave Himself up on the spike through His feet.


#5

I prefer the thought that Christ was referencing Psalm 22. From New Advent:

God my God, look upon me: why have you forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins. 3 O my God, I shall cry by day, and you will not hear: and by night, and it shall not be reputed as folly in me. 4 But you dwell in the holy place, the praise of Israel. 5 In you have our fathers hoped: they have hoped, and you have delivered them. 6 They cried to you, and they were saved: they trusted in you, and were not confounded. 7 But I am a worm, and no man: the reproach of men, and the outcast of the people. 8 All they that saw me have laughed me to scorn: they have spoken with the lips, and wagged the head. 9 He hoped in the Lord, let him deliver him: let him save him, seeing he delights in him. 10 For you are he that have drawn me out of the womb: my hope from the breasts of my mother. 11 I was cast upon you from the womb. From my mother's womb you are my God, 12 depart not from me. For tribulation is very near: for there is none to help me. 13 Many calves have surrounded me: fat bulls have besieged me. 14 They have opened their mouths against me, as a lion ravening and roaring. 15 I am poured out like water; and all my bones are scattered. My heart has become like wax melting in the midst of my bowels. 16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue has cleaved to my jaws: and you have brought me down into the dust of death. 17 For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant has besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet. 18 They have numbered all my bones. And they have looked and stared upon me. 19 They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots. 20 But you, O Lord, remove not your help to a distance from me; look towards my defence. 21 Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword: my only one from the hand of the dog. 22 Save me from the lion's mouth; and my lowness from the horns of the unicorns. 23 I will declare your name to my brethren: in the midst of the church will I praise you. 24 You that fear the Lord, praise him: all you the seed of Jacob, glorify him. 25 Let all the seed of Israel fear him: because he has not slighted nor despised the supplication of the poor man. Neither has he turned away his face form me: and when I cried to him he heard me. 26 With you is my praise in a great church: I will pay my vows in the sight of them that fear him. 27 The poor shall eat and shall be filled: and they shall praise the Lord that seek him: their hearts shall live for ever and ever. 28 All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the kindreds of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight. 29 For the kingdom is the Lord's; and he shall have dominion over the nations. 30 All the fat ones of the earth have eaten and have adored: all they that go down to the earth shall fall before him. 31 And to him my soul shall live: and my seed shall serve him. 32 There shall be declared to the Lord a generation to come: and the heavens shall show forth his justice to a people that shall be born, which the Lord has made.

Gramps Camping has proven who he is. Rumor has it that he and Al Gore will be tag-teaming the Apocalypse from here on out.


#6

[quote="Ruthie_again, post:4, topic:282099"]
It is very depressing to think that Our Lord felt rejected by His Father - but He didn't!

He was quoting the first line of Psalm 22, and might have recited the whole thing if He had the breath and strength.* He wasn't despairing; He was telling us not to despair.

Verses 6-8 and 14-18 prophesy the Passion. Praise begins with v. 23, and salvation is foretold after that, especially in the last two verses.

*Hanging by His hands compressed His lungs; the only way for Him to take a good breath was to heave Himself up on the spike through His feet.

[/quote]

I agree! He was quoting scripture and no doubt could barely speak!

In that time all the faithful would have known the Psalms by heart and often, instead of numbers since they weren't numbered as they are today, they would identify the Psalm by reciting the first line. Kind of like a title to the song.


#7

[quote="SeeNoEvil, post:3, topic:282099"]
There is a collection of works by Maria Valtorta entitled 'The Poem of The Man-God"

.

[/quote]

These books have been declared by the Church as fiction. EWTN has this

In 1959 when the "Poem" was put on the Index of Forbidden Books, it was described as "a badly fictionalized life of Christ" (L'Osservatore Romano, quoted by Cardinal Ratzinger in a letter to Cardinal Siri, 31 January 1985). Catholics were warned that it was not to be considered as revealed by God, and in fact, under the rules of the Index, no one, not even a priest, could read the volumes without a serious reason (e.g. to refute its errors) and the permission of the bishop or religious superior. Despite Roman judgements against the work its promoters have continued on their merry way, publishing and promoting it without interruption....Cardinal Ratzinger responded by letter, which the bishop then quoted in his response to the person, who shared it with us. The response noted that because of continuing interest in the books the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had requested the Italian Bishops Conference to ask the publisher (who as I noted never in the past has complied with Roman decisions) to have a disclaimer printed in the volumes that "clearly indicated from the very first page that the 'visions' and 'dictations' referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin." Whether this has been done I don't know.

What ever you may believe it is unapproved and because of that it is a banned subject here.


#8

The idea that the Father ever hated or refused to hear the Son is heresy.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God in Three Persons. They have always been One, they will always be One; they are One eternally. God is Love. God does not shun Himself.


#9

I've always understood that the Son was cut off - not against his will or being rejected, but in full knowledge and planning from before the beginning of time - in some mystical and mysterious sense (probably something to do with nearly impossible metaphysical manipulations of the hypostatic union) from the Father or the Godhead at the moment of his death (and it still hit him that hard) when he spoke those words, also to say again that another prophecy has been fulfilled in the hearing of the Jews.

I don't think this is anything outside of mainstream theology (I certainly have read it before, but, I believe it was a Church Father who may have not been an actual "Father" so to speak, but what they now call an "Ancient Ecclesiastical Writer"). The words make no sense otherwise, as, if that is not the case, they imply either the ignorance of Christ, his rebellion against the Father's will, or a lack of personal divinity - even if he was quoting a Psalm penned by David to prophesy his Crucifixion, why would David had penned the Psalm to say those words, if that had not been the case? Christ could have easily quoted Psalm 2.

The Poem of the Man-God and Valtorta's ramblings are false and Satanic trash, just like the ramblings of Medjugorje that supported them and brought them to fame. They are thoroughly unscriptural and unprofitable for salvation, contradictory, inaccurate, and contradict the mystical writings of many true visionaries, such as Mary of Jesus (Maria de Agreda) and Bl. Catherine Emmerich on certain dates, such as those of the Immaculate Conception - only Medjugorje and Valtorta have given different dates, and they disagree amongst themselves - and other factual details, such as the supposed impeccability of Joseph according to Valtorta (a lie), the Immaculate Conception of Anne (a lie), that Mary was conceived by carnal means (a lie), that Jesus was nailed through one hand and one wrist (a lie), and many others. As a famous critique has said, if the book is true, then Mary and Jesus are sinners, because they are nothing but chatterboxes therein - they say nothing profitable to salvation, but talk constantly in a 5,000-page work. And that's a lot of talking - and such idle chatter is a sin of omission, if nothing else.

God is not the Author of Lies, so, if something is found to be non-factual, contradictory to Scripture, or contradictory to other private revelations, at least one must be false (i.e. Valtorta and Medjugorje), and at best be of human design, and often of Demonic. Many of Valtorta's fans, in my experience, act like Seventh-Day Adventists and put her up on a pedestal second only to the Holy Scriptures.

If you want a good life of Christ, read "The Life of Jesus Christ and Biblical Revelations" by Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich.


#10

[quote="Ruthie_again, post:4, topic:282099"]
It is very depressing to think that Our Lord felt rejected by His Father - but He didn't!

He was quoting the first line of Psalm 22, and might have recited the whole thing if He had the breath and strength.* He wasn't despairing; He was telling us not to despair.

Verses 6-8 and 14-18 prophesy the Passion. Praise begins with v. 23, and salvation is foretold after that, especially in the last two verses.

*Hanging by His hands compressed His lungs; the only way for Him to take a good breath was to heave Himself up on the spike through His feet.

[/quote]

I dunno, Ruthie. I'm kind of surprised at you level of comfort with your own position. At Bible study we talk about the business of Christ quoting the Bible as He hung on the cross. Christ clearly knew His Scripture. And yet there He is, on the cross, nails through His hands and feet, thorns piercing His scalp, His skin savagely torn-up by a scourge -- and He seems to be reciting Bible verses, to connect Himself to them.

Question: Was He in screaming horrible pain and not mindful of the fact that His words conformed perfectly to prophecy, or was He calmly reciting Bible verses?


#11

Yes, I think maybe Harold was on something.


#12

[quote="Khalid, post:9, topic:282099"]

and contradict the mystical writings of many true visionaries, such as Mary of Jesus (Maria de Agreda) and Bl. Catherine Emmerich

If you want a good life of Christ, read "The Life of Jesus Christ and Biblical Revelations" by Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich.

[/quote]

Neither of these woman's books have been approved by the Church.


#13

[quote="Mintaka, post:8, topic:282099"]
The idea that the Father ever hated or refused to hear the Son is heresy.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God in Three Persons. They have always been One, they will always be One; they are One eternally. God is Love. God does not shun Himself.

[/quote]

This!!!


#14

[quote="fhansen, post:11, topic:282099"]
Yes, I think maybe Harold was on something.

[/quote]

Cute.


#15

[quote="adrift, post:12, topic:282099"]
Neither of these woman's books have been approved by the Church.

[/quote]

Nor have they been condemned as thoroughly, or found themselves in such contradiction to Scripture and the Magisterium, as have the others I've mentioned. Private revelation isn't binding: of course I know that. But false revelation isn't even private. (And, as far as Church approval, I see nihil obstat in the front of my copies.)


#16

[quote="Uzziah1, post:10, topic:282099"]
I dunno, Ruthie. I'm kind of surprised at you level of comfort with your own position. At Bible study we talk about the business of Christ quoting the Bible as He hung on the cross. Christ clearly knew His Scripture. And yet there He is, on the cross, nails through His hands and feet, thorns piercing His scalp, His skin savagely torn-up by a scourge -- and He seems to be reciting Bible verses, to connect Himself to them.

Question: Was He in screaming horrible pain and not mindful of the fact that His words conformed perfectly to prophecy, or was He calmly reciting Bible verses?

[/quote]

He was doing both - he was screaming prophecy, fully cognizant as God, and possibly not so much as Man, as the two wills became confused - not intermingled, nor at cross-purposes, but only a slight desynchronicity - as, at all times, he was God and Man. If God had so wished, he could have taken himself down off the Cross.


#17

Christ was reciting a specific Psalm, offering it as proof, to those that knew their scripture. Read it and notice how acurate it is, even down to the casting of lots for his clothes. That was written centuries before Christ was born.

God spoke through the prophets in which David was one. We all know that God's Word is Christ Himself. Christ (The Word) spoke through the prophets

As He hung there in unimaginable agony, He was still teaching, as He always had, showing the faithful that He was the one, the Messiah, and using the prophets own words, or rather His own words to tell them one more time, "It's Me! I AM!"


#18

I have heard it suggested many times that when Jesus cried out those words on the Cross, that was when the Father "separated" from Jesus because He had "become sin". For those who believe in such a suggestion, I would simply ask how such a belief would not make a person a pagan who believes in more than one God. After all, if they separated, they became two Gods, right? It simply undermines the truth of the Oneness of the Trinity.

I have no doubt that God did everything He could to unite Himself to humanity-- including Jesus feeling real suffering and pain on the Cross. The Psalm prophetically captures Jesus' words many years before He said them. One might say that the Psalm was quoting Jesus rather than Jesus was quoting the Psalm. At any rate, the Psalm revealed the immense suffering of the Man but (especially in verse 24) it reveals that God absolutely did NOT abandon the Man. And as Figs so eloquently said, in quoting the Psalm Jesus was revealing that it was being fulfilled in Him. Remember, too, that Jews back at that time were much more versed in the Psalms than we generally are. If the first line of a Psalm was recited, the audience would have naturally thought of the whole Psalm, not just that first line. Context, context, context!!


#19

[quote="Khalid, post:15, topic:282099"]
Nor have they been condemned as thoroughly, or found themselves in such contradiction to Scripture and the Magisterium, as have the others I've mentioned. Private revelation isn't binding: of course I know that. But false revelation isn't even private. (And, as far as Church approval, I see nihil obstat in the front of my copies.)

[/quote]

Do you know that Valtorta's work also has an imprimatur from BISHOP ROMAN DANYLAK ?

An nihil obstat is not a Church Approvel. See here

Nowadays, after the Imprimatur, you might see these words:
The "Nihil Obstat" and "Imprimatur" are official declarations that a book or pamphlet is free of doctrinal or moral error. No implication is contained therein that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur agree with the content, opinions or statements expressed.

I wish to make it clear. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the books. What I am saying is that they have not been declared as being supernatural in origin. In time, they might be but that time is not here as of today they are unapproved.


#20

[quote="Prayer_Warrior, post:18, topic:282099"]
I have heard it suggested many times that when Jesus cried out those words on the Cross, that was when the Father "separated" from Jesus because He had "become sin". For those who believe in such a suggestion, I would simply ask how such a belief would not make a person a pagan who believes in more than one God. After all, if they separated, they became two Gods, right? It simply undermines the truth of the Oneness of the Trinity.

I have no doubt that God did everything He could to unite Himself to humanity-- including Jesus feeling real suffering and pain on the Cross. The Psalm prophetically captures Jesus' words many years before He said them. One might say that the Psalm was quoting Jesus rather than Jesus was quoting the Psalm. At any rate, the Psalm revealed the immense suffering of the Man but (especially in verse 24) it reveals that God absolutely did NOT abandon the Man. And as Figs so eloquently said, in quoting the Psalm Jesus was revealing that it was being fulfilled in Him. Remember, too, that Jews back at that time were much more versed in the Psalms than we generally are. If the first line of a Psalm was recited, the audience would have naturally thought of the whole Psalm, not just that first line. Context, context, context!!

[/quote]

:thumbsup: Well put!:thumbsup:


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