Was Jesus the only sinless person ever to be born?


#1

Hi…I’m on a freedom of religion/conscience rights discussion board with some Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. One of the non-Catholics just posted that, “The Bible teaches that Christ was the only sinless person ever to walk the earth,” and that the Blessed Mother was a normal person vis-a-vis sin, ie, she was a sinner. Another said that what we (Catholics) have been taught on this topic is nowhere in the Bible. What is the best response? How do we know the Blessed Mother was without sin? Thank you in advance.


#2

[quote="gigi4747, post:1, topic:307746"]
Hi...I'm on a freedom of religion/conscience rights discussion board with some Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. One of the non-Catholics just posted that, "The Bible teaches that Christ was the only sinless person ever to walk the earth," and that the Blessed Mother was a normal person vis-a-vis sin, ie, she was a sinner. Another said that what we (Catholics) have been taught on this topic is nowhere in the Bible. What is the best response? How do we know the Blessed Mother was without sin? Thank you in advance.

[/quote]

There's a really good answer to this in an old issue of Catholic Answers Magazine that they've kept on the website at this link: Click here. I recommend you take a look at it.

A few of the basic passages that teach Mary's sinlessness:

1) Luke 1:28 "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." -- If Mary is full of grace, then there's no room for sin.

2) Luke 1:42 "Blessed are you among women!" -- You are tall among men or strong among men is the Hebrew way of saying you are the tallest or the strongest. So "blessed are you among women" means Mary is the most blessed of all women and therefore the holiest woman ever.

3) Genesis 3:15 "And God said to the serpent, I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall strike at your head, and you shall strike at his heel." -- This is a prophecy of the redemption. The woman is Mary, her seed is Jesus, the serpent is the devil, "he shall strike at your head" means the devil and sin will be defeated, and "you shall strike at his heel" means Christ's foot will be wounded (think of the nail). The key is that it comes right after the Original Sin was committed. God is promising the removal of sin in the enmity with Satan (and his defeat) that is shared by Jesus and Mary. So Mary and Jesus had no sin because they were part of the redemption and removal of sin planned by God.

4) "The New Eve" The early Christians compared Jesus to Adam and Mary to Eve because Adam and Eve were part of our fall while Jesus and Mary were part of our redemption. They didn't share in sin because they were prepared by God to undo the sins of Adam and Eve and the rest of us. The parallels between Adam and Eve versus Jesus and Mary are intricately woven into the New Testament and don't come out without some serious Scripture study, but a very important part of it is in Revelation 12, where the devil is enraged at Mary for defeating his plans and he makes war against her children (us) because they are obedient to Christ. This fulfills the prophecy of Genesis 3 where the devil would be enemies of the woman and her seed -- not just Jesus but all of us. Take a look at the link I gave you above for more on that.

5) "The New Ark" The early Christians also compared Mary to the Ark of the Covenant because the Ark of the Covenant carried the presence of God for the Israelites in the Old Testament, and Mary carried Jesus in the New Testament. In Exodus 25 God detailed to Moses the way the Ark was to be made, and it had to be perfect. The early Christians considered this an extended prophecy of Mary and that God would prepare her to be a perfect vessel for the incarnate presence of God in Christ Jesus.


#3

Thank you and God bless ~


#4

=gigi4747;10111249]Hi…I’m on a freedom of religion/conscience rights discussion board with some Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. One of the non-Catholics just posted that, “The Bible teaches that Christ was the only sinless person ever to walk the earth,” and that the Blessed Mother was a normal person vis-a-vis sin, ie, she was a sinner. Another said that what we (Catholics) have been taught on this topic is nowhere in the Bible. What is the best response? How do we know the Blessed Mother was without sin? Thank you in advance.

HE’S WRONG AND HERE’S WHY:

D R Bible & the Vulgate

Luke Ch.1: 26-35 “In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “**Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” *** But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” 35 And the angel said to her, "**The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. **“ This the most important Marian Doctrine passages in the Bible.

The K J bible changed the text so they could make the claim your unelightened friend has made. Even some profgresive catholic bibles have it wrong.

Look it up on:

insert:
Douay Rheims
Latin Vulgate

HERE HOW TO PROVE IT:

God is perfect
God MUST [no options here] remain perfect in order to be God
Mary is the Mother of God VERSE 35
Therefore MAry absolutely HAD TO BE perfected before she was conceived [a miracle by all mighty God]; BUT then SHE had to freely choose to remain perfect her entire life in order to BE the “Mother of God”

GOD COULD NOT; WOULD NOT AND WAS-NOT BORN FROM AN IMPERFECT MOTHER. SUCH AN ACT WOULD HAVE CAUSE GOD [JESUS IN HIS HUMAN NATURE] TO BE IMPERFECT AS would have been HIS “MOM”… AN ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE POSITION FOR GOD to ACCEPT.:smiley:

So let him disprove this!:rolleyes::rolleyes:


#5

She was a sinner just like all of us, it was part of her nature to sin. She may have possibly been filled with the Holy Spirit from conception just as John the Baptist was, softening her heart towards Gods grace, and while that would make her repentent it would not make her totally steadfast. She was a sinner, there is no biblical or even early christian traditions to the contrary.


#6

[quote="PJM, post:4, topic:307746"]
HE'S WRONG AND HERE'S WHY:

D R Bible & the Vulgate

Luke Ch.1: 26-35 “In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!" *** But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end." And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" 35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. “ ***This the most important Marian Doctrine passages in* the Bible.

The K J bible changed the text so they could make the claim your unelightened friend has made. Even some profgresive catholic bibles have it wrong.

Look it up on:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/

insert:
Douay Rheims
Latin Vulgate

HERE HOW TO PROVE IT:

God is perfect
God MUST [no options here] remain perfect in order to be God
Mary is the Mother of God VERSE 35
Therefore MAry absolutely HAD TO BE perfected before she was conceived [a miracle by all mighty God]; BUT then SHE had to freely choose to remain perfect her entire life in order to BE the "Mother of God"

GOD COULD NOT; WOULD NOT AND WAS-NOT BORN FROM AN IMPERFECT MOTHER. SUCH AN ACT WOULD HAVE CAUSE GOD [JESUS IN HIS HUMAN NATURE] TO BE IMPERFECT AS would have been HIS "MOM"... AN ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE POSITION FOR GOD to ACCEPT.:D

So let him disprove this!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[/quote]

She was not the mother of God, she did not bear the everlasting God. She was merely the vessel through which God manifested himself in the flesh. Christ interacted with sinners didn't he, how could he do that without them being perfect, according to your logic?


#7

[quote="PaulinePresbytr, post:5, topic:307746"]
She was a sinner just like all of us, it was part of her nature to sin. She may have possibly been filled with the Holy Spirit from conception just as John the Baptist was, softening her heart towards Gods grace, and while that would make her repentent it would not make her totally steadfast. She was a sinner, there is no biblical or even early christian traditions to the contrary.

[/quote]

Then explain points 4 and 5. Those make it sound a lot like this is an early Christian belief, contradicting the bolded part.

Also, I'm honestly interested in this: Which Bible verses do Calvinists use to defend their claims that men can only sin and that Mary, too, was sinful


#8

Oh, and God manifesting himself in the flesh sure sounds a lot like being born (of Mary) :rolleyes:


#9

Mary – Full of Grace (kecharitomene)

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Additionally, the angel’s greeting, “Hail, Full of Grace” suggests that “Full of Grace” is being used as a title and not as a mere description. This is analogous to the Roman greeting, “Hail, Caesar” said to someone whose name was “Julius” and whose title was “Caesar”. The angel did not say, “Hail, Mary, full of grace”; this is part of OUR prayer in the rosary.

From this passage, we can find clear support for the Church’s teaching that Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin and was herself full of grace from the moment that she was immaculately conceived in her mother’s womb by a singular gift of God.


#10

This is incorrect.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

She gave birth to a person not to a nature.

This heresy was dealt with over a thousand years ago.

As for Jesus interacting with sinners, all of us do that all the time, but we do not inherit original sin from anyone other than our parents. Jesus did not inherit sin from God the Father nor did he inherit sin from Mary, his mother, because she was preserved from sin by a singular grace of God which we call the Immaculate Conception.


#11

[quote="PaulinePresbytr, post:5, topic:307746"]
She was a sinner just like all of us, it was part of her nature to sin. She may have possibly been filled with the Holy Spirit from conception just as John the Baptist was, softening her heart towards Gods grace, and while that would make her repentent it would not make her totally steadfast. She was a sinner, there is no biblical or even early christian traditions to the contrary.

[/quote]

You have already been shown the biblical evidence from the scriptures from Luke which suggest the sinlessness of Mary. Now, here are the "early christian (sic) traditions" that you are ignorant of:

Hippolytus (AD 235)

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (*Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 *ante [A.D. 235]).


Origen (AD 244)

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

St. Ephraim the Syrian (AD 361)

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 A.D. 361]).

"My Lady Most Holy, All-Pure, All-Immaculate, All-Stainless, All-Undefiled, All-Incorrupt, All-Inviolate ...Spotless Robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment ...Flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone Most Immaculate." (ibid.)

+++

Now, perhaps you can show us the verses which prove that Mary was a sinner?


#12

[quote="PaulinePresbytr, post:6, topic:307746"]
She was not the mother of God, she did not bear the everlasting God. She was merely the vessel through which God manifested himself in the flesh. Christ interacted with sinners didn't he, how could he do that without them being perfect, according to your logic?

[/quote]

Unless you are willing to disect the Trinity, or reject the Incarnation, it is perfectly correct to state that the Blessed Virgin was indeed the Holy Theotokos, the God-bearer, the Mother of God.

Jon


#13

Happy Feast of the Immaculate Conception, everybody! :slight_smile:


#14

[quote="PaulinePresbytr, post:6, topic:307746"]
She was not the mother of God, she did not bear the everlasting God. She was merely the vessel through which God manifested himself in the flesh. Christ interacted with sinners didn't he, how could he do that without them being perfect, according to your logic?

[/quote]

So Jesus, as a 9 month old baby in Mary's womb, was not God???:confused:


#15

[quote="Razanir, post:7, topic:307746"]
Then explain points 4 and 5. Those make it sound a lot like this is an early Christian belief, contradicting the bolded part.

Also, I'm honestly interested in this: Which Bible verses do Calvinists use to defend their claims that men can only sin and that Mary, too, was sinful

[/quote]

Geneva, KJV, ESV, and NKJV are the big ones, and it was upheld in debates during the 1500s using, often times, the Latin Vulgate.


#16

[quote="joe370, post:14, topic:307746"]
So Jesus, as a 9 month old baby in Mary's womb, was not God???:confused:

[/quote]

He was God, but also man. Mary was mother of the man part, not the God part as Mary was born probably around 20-15 BC, give or take a year or two, and Jesus has existed eternally.


#17

[quote="PaulinePresbytr, post:15, topic:307746"]
Geneva, KJV, ESV, and NKJV are the big ones, and it was upheld in debates during the 1500s using, often times, the Latin Vulgate.

[/quote]

Those aren't Catholic Bibles.

The Vulgate/Douay Reims (literal translation of the Vulgate) is over 1000 years older than the KJV.

The KJV is essentially a political document, written to justify Protestantism.

God Bless


#18

[quote="PaulinePresbytr, post:15, topic:307746"]
Geneva, KJV, ESV, and NKJV are the big ones, and it was upheld in debates during the 1500s using, often times, the Latin Vulgate.

[/quote]

Okay... You've named a few Bible translations. But what about the specific verses? Where specifically in the Bible does it say that men are sinful by nature? Also, where specifically in the Bible does it say that Jesus was not actually born by Mary and instead just entered the world through her?


#19

[quote="JonNC, post:12, topic:307746"]
Unless you are willing to disect the Trinity, or reject the Incarnation, it is perfectly correct to state that the Blessed Virgin was indeed the Holy Theotokos, the God-bearer, the Mother of God.

Jon

[/quote]

She bore God manifest in the flesh, she did not make God. She would only have to be perfect if she made a perfect God, which she did not. She merely had him manifest in the flesh inside of her for 9 months


#20

Romans 6. She gave birth to him, but she did not create him. He had always existed, she merely carried and gave birth to him


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