Was Mary really sinless?


#1

DOCTRINE: Mary was sinless. (Catechism #829)

**BIBLE: All have sinned. (Romans 3:23) Note also that Mary called God “my Savior” Luke 1:47. If Mary was sinless, what does she need saving from?

**


#2

[quote=PMV]DOCTRINE: Mary was sinless. (Catechism #829)

**BIBLE: All have sinned. (Romans 3:23) Note also that Mary called God “my Savior” Luke 1:47. If Mary was sinless, what does she need saving from?

**
[/quote]

original sin, from Adam & Eve


#3

If you think about it, it makes sense… Jesus became incarnate from being born from a woman’s womb (Mary’s), right? So Jesus chose to save her from sin PRIOR to her being conceived. Therefore, Mary was born without the stain of original sin (from Adam and Eve).

The rest of us poor schlubs are born with the stain of original sin which we have to wait until we’re baptized for it to be removed.


#4

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

This is the Catholic Answers tract on Mary’s sinlessness. Please take the time to read it.

Justin


#5

All things are possible with God. And that would include preserving Mary from the stain of sin. She still needed a savior, but He saved her *ahead of time. :wave: *


#6

[quote=PMV]DOCTRINE: Mary was sinless. (Catechism #829)

BIBLE: All have sinned. (Romans 3:23) Note also that Mary called God “my Savior” Luke 1:47. If Mary was sinless, what does she need saving from?

[/quote]

Hi!

Some use the analogy of a hole. One can be saved from a hole in two ways. A person can be pulled out of a hole after they fall in or prevented from falling in in the first place. Both scenerios require a Savior.

Jesus saved Mary before she fell into sin and the rest of us after. Nonetheless, all of us, Mary and everyone else, needed a Savior.

In Christ,
Nancy :slight_smile:


#7

Mary was saved more spectacularly than the rest of us. She has an even greater reason to call God her Savior than we do.


#8

Mary was sinless. Children are sinless before they reach the age of reason. And severely retarded people are sinless.


#9

[quote=Christy Beth]All things are possible with God. And that would include preserving Mary from the stain of sin. She still needed a savior, but He saved her *ahead of time. :wave: *
[/quote]

:amen: Annunciata:thumbsup:


#10

Biblical Basis Essentially the same as with the Immaculate Conception. Had Mary ever committed a sin during her life, she would not have been an enemy of the devil or a holy vessel; thus her Immaculate Conception would have been in vain! Her fullness of grace would have helped prevent her from committing sin.


#11

[quote=Chris Jacobsen]Mary was sinless. Children are sinless before they reach the age of reason. And severely retarded people are sinless.
[/quote]

Mary had no original sin and actual sin.

Children beyond the age of reason and mentally retarded persons have original sin but not actual sin.


#12

I posted this on anothe thread , but I will repeat it :

Bishop Fulten Sheen used a great analogy for the immaculate conception. Most people outside of christianity deny a need of redemptiom. They deny a need for penance. They do not believe in sin. You could say they all believe that THEY were immaculately conceived. So if those who arent even of the faith believe, why is it difficult for us christians to believe it? If GOD is the greatest artist, THE creator, with his will to present to us the greatest masterpiece, Jesus, the perfect man, he would not choose a tainted canvas. The church testifies, HE didnt.

The commandement: Honor thy Father and thy Mother. What greater honor can be bestowed to his Mother than redemption by anticipation, born w/o sin, and assumption into heaven in a incorruptable, glorified body. The same fate we all hope to share.

So dont be talking about Jesus’s MOMA!


#13

If all have sinned that would have to included Jesus too. Since you seem to imply that the word ‘all’ is used in an absolute way (including every single person ever). Jesus would naturally have to fall in that cateegory under ur usage.

But we know that Jesus had no sin. Therefore there is, so far, 1 exception to this verse.
As many have said prior to this post, children under the age of reason cannot commit actual sin…the severly mentally handicapped also are exceptions.

So we see that the ‘all’ is a general ‘all’, with many exceptions of which Mary after her son Jesus is.

Cephas :rolleyes:


#14

Mr. “catholic” PMV,

Mary was indeed sinless, just like Jesus. Jesus is human, while Mary is also human. But their profound difference is Jesus is God while Mary isn’t.

Mary was saved by God in advance for God is Omnipotent. Mary doesn’t have the power to save herself, that’s why she called God her Saviour. But when she said that, it doesn’t imply that she had sinned. She was manifesting the great work of the Almighty done to her by preserving her from the stain of sin. That’s why Mary was a pure Vessel for God incarnate. Her humanity (body and soul) was preserved by God from (original) sin for the incarnation of the Second Person. The Second Person of the Trinity assumed our humanity thru her which was free from that stain of original sin. That’s why Jesus flesh can be rightly be the flesh of Mary, and his bones the bones of Mary.

Pio


#15
  1. Adam and Eve were sinless at one time.
  2. Mary is the New Eve because Jesus is the New Adam. Both must be sinless, or God is inconsistent.
  3. The Ark of the Covenant forshadowed Mary because of What was in it. What was in it forshadowed Jesus. The ark was made of the purest materials available.
  4. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant because what was in her womb (God) was foreshdowed by the Ark of the Covenant.
  5. The sign that John saw, the Woman Clothed with the sun, immediately follows the ark in the Temple.They are not separate events. Revelation, as mysterious and puzzling as it can be, is not disordered and random in its unfolding. Either God assumed a box, or He assumed the Ark of he New Covenant. If the Assumption is false, then God assumed a box. Yea, right.

If Mary was a sinner, then God and sin can co-exist. So either God did not come in the flesh, and fuse Himself with the ovum in Mary’s womb, and came down from heaven in some other way, that would mean that Jesus was not fully human.

If Mary was a sinner, then the person of Jesus would have to be also a sinner, because anyone with any biology knows that babies grow from the flesh of their mothers. That means Jesus is not God.

If Mary was a sinner, and became pure when God came upon her, that would mean that Mary is not the New Eve, and Jesus would not be the New Adam. That is why Protestants reject that it is Mary being prophecied in Gen. 3:15.

Mary is sinless because she is the Mother of God. God and sin cannot co-exist. Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, a Person, not a Half 'n half. If Jesus is a Half 'n half (half God, and half human) then He cannot be fully God. A post-baptismal denial that Mary is the Mother of God with full knowledge and understanding of the Christian teaching is to blaspheme the Incarnation.
con’t…


#16

The title, “Mother of God” had to be defined because a heretic was challenging the Trinity. the council of Ephesis proved Mary was indeed “Theotokos” or God-bearer. Then they clarified the doctrine of the Trinity. The title “Mother of God” came about BEFORE the doctine of Trinity was clarified, not after. So Protestants have to reject a doctrine that is essentially older than the Trinity, which they accept from the council of Ephesis. That in itself is illogical.

PMV, your not doing any good in those anti-Catholic forums. You are just reinforcing hatred and bigotry. And you need to spend some time reading the library topics on the main page of this forum, and stop being so lazy as to get eveyone else to spoon feed you information that is readily available in this web site and a host of others. Here is a search tip that has helped me.

In any search engine, name the topic, followed by the words "catholic apologetics"
For example:
eucharist catholic apologetics
immaculate conception catholic apologetics
prayers to saints catholic apologetics

This method will reduce the amount of hate sites that you usually get when you search for anything. I said reduce, not eliminate.

Lastly, by “defending the faith” in hateful anti-Catholic forums, where you will never be treated with any kind of fairness, aslo does harm to yourself.

God bless you,
kepha1


#17

Kepha1

Good job on the prefigurements of Mary in Scripture (I would also add that God created the universe “Immaculate” in a manner of speaking…the Bible says that God saw that it was good. Adam was made from the dust of earth. Jesus recieved His flesh from Mary, also Immaculate).

However, you seem to assert the Immaculate Conception as a matter of nessecity - something God had to do. However, is this entirely correct? Could not God, if He had so wished (which He didn’t), allowed Jesus to be born of Mary as a sinful woman? Aren’t all things possible with God?

You say

If Mary was a sinner, then the person of Jesus would have to be also a sinner, because anyone with any biology knows that babies grow from the flesh of their mothers. That means Jesus is not God.

An argument sometimes raised by those who oppose the Immaculate Conception is “If Mary needed to be sinless for Jesus to be, then wouldn’t Anne need to be sinless for Mary to be, and her mother sinless for Anne to be, and her mother, and her mother, and so on?” If Mary had to be sinless for Jesus to be sinless, then wouldn’t the same apply to Mary and her mother? But, of course, Saint Anne was not sinless. Did God bring about the Immaculate Conception as a matter of nessecity, or a matter of beauty? Was it that God needed to do this, or was it that it was fitting and appropriate for the Mother of God to be free from sin (pure like the Ark Covenant), so that she could say “yes” to God, and bear the Incarnation?


#18

The immaculate conception ties into The belief of unmerited grace. MARY was the first to receive it, so she becomes the mother of the church. She continued in that grace for her entire life.


#19

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