Was the Vatican ruling against Mormon baptisms unprecendented?


#1

beliefnet.com/News/2001/07/Vatican-Declares-Mormon-Baptisms-Invalid-For-Doctrinal-Reasons.aspx


#2

I think it was only unprecedented in that the Mormon use the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

Alternative baptismal formals have been rejected for centuries, however Mormon baptism might be the first using the proper formula to be rejected on solely doctrinal grounds.


#3

[quote="runningdude, post:2, topic:302182"]
I think it was only unprecedented in that the Mormon use the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

Alternative baptismal formals have been rejected for centuries, however Mormon baptism might be the first using the proper formula to be rejected on solely doctrinal grounds.

[/quote]

According to the council of Florence, not only the right formula and matter, but also the intention to do as the Church does is necessary.


#4


#5

[quote="Inego_de_Loyola, post:4, topic:302182"]

[/quote]

The article states that this is the first time that the Vatican invalidated any form of Christian baptism. Normally, anyone baptized with a "Christian' baptism does not have to be re-baptized when joining the Roman Catholic Church. As of 2001, it is now a requirement for the Mormons if they want to join the Roman Catholic Church.

God's peace

micah


#6

[quote="Inego_de_Loyola, post:3, topic:302182"]
According to the council of Florence, not only the right formula and matter, but also the intention to do as the Church does is necessary.

[/quote]

Makes sense. They intend to do what Christ's "restored" Church does, not what Christ's Church has always done.


#7

I’d image Mormons always still received a conditional baptism upon entering Catholicism, unless individuals were previously baptized elsewhere prior to converting to Mormonism.

Up until may the late 1800’s or early 1900’s, even Trinitarian Protestants were required to receive conditional baptism when converting to Catholicism, so I think describing the rejection of Mormon baptism as “unprecedented” is a bit hyperbolic.


#8

The uniqueness of the Mormon’s beliefs puts them far enough outside of Christianity as to invalidate their intent. Remember, even Islam has a Christology, in that they accept Jesus as a prophet, yet this does not constitute them being Christian. It is only Christian baptism that is recognized.


#9

[quote="mercytruth, post:5, topic:302182"]
The article states that this is the first time that the Vatican invalidated any form of Christian baptism. Normally, anyone baptized with a "Christian' baptism does not have to be re-baptized when joining the Roman Catholic Church. As of 2001, it is now a requirement for the Mormons if they want to join the Roman Catholic Church.

God's peace

micah

[/quote]

Mormon baptisms are considered invalid because of the mormon view of the Trinity, which they call "godhead".

Mormons believe the Trinity to be 3 distinctly separate and individual entities. That is in direct conflict with the Church's definition of the Trinity, and therefor is not considered a "Christian" baptism.

A mormon coming into the Catholic Church would require a standard baptism, and not a conditional. Unless there was a valid Christian baptism prior to the being baptized mormon.

I find your asking this question kind of interesting considering mormons don't recognize Catholic baptisms, so the same question could be asked of mormons couldn't it?


#10

[quote="mercytruth, post:5, topic:302182"]
The article states that this is the first time that the Vatican invalidated any form of Christian baptism. Normally, anyone baptized with a "Christian' baptism does not have to be re-baptized when joining the Roman Catholic Church. As of 2001, it is now a requirement for the Mormons if they want to join the Roman Catholic Church.

God's peace

micah

[/quote]

You have basically answered your own question.

The Catholic Church, and several others, do not consider the mormon church to be "Christian".

The mormon view of the Trinity is far outside what is recognized by mainstream Christianity.

Therefore a mormon baptism is not considered "Christian"


#11

Is the exorcism prayer said during a conditional baptism?

God’s peace

micah


#12

What is truly unprecedented is that the next President may be a former Bishop in the Mormon cult.

For a blunt analysis of Mormonism, I recommend Chris Ferrara’s piece “A Mormon? Seriously?” (remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2012-0131-ferrara-romney.htm).


#13

It would be unprecedented if the Mormons were Christians practice a Christian baptism but seeing that they are not Christians as is traditionally understood then it is not unprecedented.

The Catholic Church does not recognize Christian groups baptisms who baptize only in the name of Jesus. They do not recognize the baptism of groups who do not believe in the Trinity as expressed by traditional Christianity (this is where the Mormons fall though there are groups that deny that the Holy Spirit is a person). They do not recognize baptisms done in the name of the Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier.


#14

As opposed to our President who is......


#15

Evangelical, congregational Christian.


#16

=mercytruth;9904873]beliefnet.com/News/2001/07/Vatican-Declares-Mormon-Baptisms-Invalid-For-Doctrinal-Reasons.aspx

NO, RATHER IT IS MANDATED BY GOD HIMSELF.

Mormons are a very MORAL people :) ...BUT

Even though they use alot of the same terminolgy we do; it has VASTLY different meanings.

Their "god" is NOT OUR Christian / Catholic GOD

Their "Jesus" is NOT God and man... just a man

Christ Himself MANDATES the FORM HE WILL ACCEPT for a vaild Baptism; the first step to His Salvation.

John.3: 5 "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

God Bless,
Pat


#17

[quote="HansTrappist, post:12, topic:302182"]
What is truly unprecedented is that the next President may be a former Bishop in the Mormon cult.

For a blunt analysis of Mormonism, I recommend Chris Ferrara's piece "A Mormon? Seriously?" (remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2012-0131-ferrara-romney.htm).

[/quote]

Better than the man we hope he will be replacing. Regardless this is not the news forum so please don't bring politics into this or Robert Bay will be the last thing this thread will ever see.


#18

[quote="mercytruth, post:1, topic:302182"]
beliefnet.com/News/2001/07/Vatican-Declares-Mormon-Baptisms-Invalid-For-Doctrinal-Reasons.aspx

[/quote]

My understanding is, a Bishop in Idaho inquired about baptism for former Mormons who were entering the Church. He first asked the SLC Diocese, who replied they had always done conditional baptisms. Not satisfied with this, he asked the Roman Curia. They took ten years to answer.

In this sense, it isn't unprecedented as this is one aspect of how the congregations of Bishops function. If there is not an exact ruling already, about anything, any Bishop can ask for one.


#19

Mormonism is very rare outside of North America, and therefore might not be the highest priority for the Roman Curia. Conditional Baptism was a reasonable response until a definitive ruling was had.

As an aside, Rome has recently discouraged Catholic Parishes from giving records to Mormon genealogists to avoid appearing to endorse the Mormon practice of “baptisms for the dead”. Perhaps it has to do with the recent announcement of a Mormon Temple to be built in Rome that has put the LDS Church on Rome’s mind.


#20

[quote="mercytruth, post:11, topic:302182"]
Is the exorcism prayer said during a conditional baptism?

God's peace

micah

[/quote]

No it isn't.

A conditional baptism is usually referred for those cases where a Christian baptism cannot be confirmed by baptismal certificate, or affidavit of witnesses

As the lay director of RCIA for our parish, we see these alot more often than we should, With that being said, with every convert that we have had from the mormon church, a conditional baptism was never done.


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