Was there a point that only God existed?


#41

It may not be right, or it may be right, or it may be both or it may be neither. A singularity point is a point where all laws and principles cease. We cannot know anything about it, by definition.

Time as we know it is an aspect of spacetime. It cannot exist apart from space. If time existed before the big bang and without space/material, it was not like the time we know.


#42

. Dubious, because at one point in time, there were no fallen angels. Then later on some angels disobeyed God, then after that spacetime was created in the BB.


#43

C-Theory of TIme

In this series of articles I have argued that time can be consistently modelled as a biaxial, homogeneous relation between multiple orders of internal difference. Every order of internal difference signifies a unique object-identity undergoing constitutive change, which is in turn topologically and qualitatively ordered with respect to other object-identities. The conditional logic of internal difference guarantees irreversibility of the order, while episodic (constitutive sequence) and configurational (historical) dimensions of time express systemic consistency of a relationally unified object-set (C-structure). Time characterised in this way is a logical property of appearing in a world.


#44

Dubious, because time is used in an analogous sense, since time as we know it did not exist before creation. Whatever analogy is being used, it is meant to mimic our concept of time, though imperfectly. Whatever “time” was for the angels, it did not have the dimensionality it gained with creation.


#45

It would stand to reason that the Creator of everything would have been the only being in existence at some time. This “time” would predate “time” itself, however (not to mention the creation of the universe), as God is not bound by time (another creation of His).


#46

I don’t know that time did not exist before the BB. I don’t see any contradiction in assuming that time existed before the BB. In view of the fact that there were good angels before the BB, and that later on, they disobeyed God, it is not unreasonable to assume that there was time before the BB. Einstein’s theory of general relativity, linking time and space, applies to situations after the BB. I don’t see where he ever said that general relativity was supposed to apply before the BB.


#47

Time is the measure of change of physical things. Unless you’re positing that the universe had no beginning, then you cannot posit that time has always existed.

That doesn’t follow.

The universe exists timelessly in God’s perspective (in other words, God is not constrained within the space-time of the universe). However, that doesn’t mean that God didn’t create the universe. The “act of creation” is exactly what you’d expect: it’s God’s act of creating the universe and all in it.

That is exactly what it means. See? No problems! :wink:

It’s a “coming into being”.

In a sense, though, you’re onto something important: if God exists eternally, then there is no time ‘before’ or ‘after’ Him. So, the creation of the universe doesn’t have a position in time with respect to God. From God’s perspective, everything is in the “eternal now”, and therefore, so is the universe.

The problem comes when you attempt to use temporal constructs outside of the temporal universe. Trying to think of a temporal “before” with respect to the universe makes no sense.


#48

Ask yourself – from a philosophical perspective – “what is time?”… and you’ll have your answer right there. :wink:


#49

No. At a minimum two things existed: 1) God; 2) the point (however defined).

:slight_smile:

rossum


#50

Time is the progression of events that occur from the past to the present to the future.
That is how we explain the fact that some angels disobeyed God before the Creation of the universe. At one point in time, there were good angels, then they disobeyed God, then there were the fallen angels. Events progressed within time before the BB.


#51

If you accept a gap between the Big Bang and the creation of Earth then the event with the angels may have occurred within it.

There is certainly some experience of time in the afterlife (Purgatory and the resurrection of our bodies).


#52

Great! Now, please tell me: where do ‘past’, ‘present’ and ‘future’ exist?

Only within the temporal framework of the universe.

No. You’re “anthropomorphizing”, here. There was no ‘progression’. God created them, they had the opportunity to choose, and that choice lasts eternally. The fact that they exist outside time is the reason that the choice can never be changed!


#53

I don’t see that this is a fact. I see this as an unsupported and unverified opinion.


#54

I don’t understand how this article and your quote is related to my arguments.


#55

I am afraid that I cannot understand what you are trying to tell me. Could you please expound?


#56

No. Time is an entity that allows changes. Nothing to something at the same timeless point is impossible.

It follows. Do you mind to provide your arguments.

That is the problem. Timeless state is one state, the state that within creation exist and exist not. That is a contradiction.

There is a duration when it is stated that God has always existed.

That is the problem. Timeless state is one state, the state that within creation exists and exists not. That is a contradiction.


#57

I am afraid that I cannot follow you. The point is not a thing. Hereby, it means the instant that God exists.


#58

The Church teaches it. That’s pretty strong ‘support’ and ‘verification’. :wink:

Awesome. So, if it’s an entity, then you can point to it, right?

You’ve just described the creation of a soul. So… not impossible.

No. Since there is no time, there is no ‘duration’. That’s what’s getting you confused. :wink:


#59

Timeless state is one point. You could not have both nothing and something there.


#60

Where does the Roman Catholic Church infallibly teach that angels exist outside time? It is wrong, because there has been a progression of events in the lives of the angels. Some fell, whereas others did not.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.