Was this a valid Liturgy of the Eucharist?

I’m wondering if my gut feeling about a Mass I attended was correct. We have some liturgical problems where I live, but I have never quite seen anything to this extent before and feel like our slippery slope is heading toward an avalanche. Here’s what happened…

The priest sang the ‘Eucharistic Prayer’, with piano accompaniment. Never heard the one he sang before, so I’m not sure really if it was an approved Eucharistic Prayer or not (it wasn’t I, II, III, or IV). He was reading it from papers stapled together. Every so often during the Eucharistic prayer, (as the piano played continuously in the background) the cantor would lead the children with part of the ‘Holy Holy Holy’ - usually it was the ‘Hosanna in the highest’ line, but sometimes it was a different part of the song or a variation. We interjected the Eucharistic prayer with this 3 or 4 times. We never really sang or said the whole thing. Well, the piano continued to play and the priest sang the consecration. During the elevation of the host, the cantor (again, while the piano played) led us in a song…the words were something like ‘Blessed be Jesus for dying for us’ or something like that. Never heard it before. We did this during the elevation of the chalice too. The piano finally stopped as we said the Our Father. I honestly wondered if I was at a valid Mass or valid consecration. I can’t find any of this in the GIRM, but someone told me there are various liturgies and maybe there is one for a Children’s Mass and that is what I experienced today. Can anyone help me make sense of this?

[quote=Elzee]I honestly wondered if I was at a valid Mass or valid consecration. I can’t find any of this in the GIRM, but someone told me there are various liturgies and maybe there is one for a Children’s Mass and that is what I experienced today. Can anyone help me make sense of this?
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There may have been a valid consecration (although, one might wonder if the priest had the proper intent), but I think that you can pretty much bank on the Mass being illicit.

It sounds absolutely horrible.

Dear Elzee,

There is a very beautiful Eucharistic Prayer for children’s liturgies. Had you really listened rather than be upset, you might have been edified and inspired by the change in wording, for it is really appropriate and simplistic. You may want to discuss this with your pastor in order to be better informed and also to save your hair from standing up. :stuck_out_tongue: The short acclamation after the elevation is most likely permitted during children’s liturgies, also. I don’t remember what wording the priest used for that part of the mass.

I thought I heard or read recently that it is under consideration for removing the memorial acclamation from the liturgy, so it is not really an essential that would cause the mass to be invalid. Oh my, I’m sorry it appeared that way to you.

It sounds like you need some basic instruction on the rubrics. It puzzles me why you would leave Our Lord’s presence and walk out? BTW, I have also heard the Eucharistic Prayer sung by a priest in our diocese. He was our vocations director, so I doubt he would have done anything illicit. It sounds to me like your priest was lawfully doing his very best to make the liturgy more meaningful for those children. He is to be commended, for I have seen crude indifference in some priests, to my heart’s sorrow.

Peace,
Carole

[quote=Dropper]There may have been a valid consecration (although, one might wonder if the priest had the proper intent), but I think that you can pretty much bank on the Mass being illicit.

It sounds absolutely horrible.
[/quote]

Can a consecration be valid if the Mass is not?

It may very well have been the Eucharistic Prayer for Children. The acclamations are OK as is the priest singing the Eucharistic Prayer. I believe there are some additional new Eucharistic Prayers that have been approved but for which documentation is not yet available.

The big thing that stood out for me was the piano playing throughout. The piano should only have been used during the acclamations and possibly to play a chord every so often so the priest could stay on pitch. The Eucharistic Prayer should not be accompanied.

[quote=Joysong]Dear Elzee,

There is a very beautiful Eucharistic Prayer for children’s liturgies. Had you really listened rather than be upset, you might have been edified and inspired by the change in wording, for it is really appropriate and simplistic. You may want to discuss this with your pastor in order to be better informed and also to save your hair from standing up. :stuck_out_tongue: The short acclamation after the elevation is most likely permitted during children’s liturgies, also. I don’t remember what wording the priest used for that part of the mass.

I thought I heard or read recently that it is under consideration for removing the memorial acclamation from the liturgy, so it is not really an essential that would cause the mass to be invalid. Oh my, I’m sorry it appeared that way to you.

It sounds like you need some basic instruction on the rubrics. It puzzles me why you would leave Our Lord’s presence and walk out? BTW, I have also heard the Eucharistic Prayer sung by a priest in our diocese. He was our vocations director, so I doubt he would have done anything illicit. It sounds to me like your priest was lawfully doing his very best to make the liturgy more meaningful for those children. He is to be commended, for I have seen crude indifference in some priests, to my heart’s sorrow.

Peace,
Carole
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The prayer was actually very beautiful and I personally liked it. My concern is if it was valid or not. I recently attended a Mass where the priest (different one) sang the Hallel during the consecration. It was beautiful too - but not allowed.

I’ve also heard the Eucharistic prayer sung/chanted many times also - but never with piano accompaniment and always with silence during the elevation.

The priest saying Mass is a wonderful man, and I have no doubt he was trying to make this a meaningful liturgy. It’s obvious he puts much thought into his homilies and tries to make Mass very meaningful. But, you’re right, I’m not as well versed in the rubrics as I could be, and this was so foreign from anything I’ve experienced before that it made me question it’s validity. Thanks for your help.

[quote=Elzee]Can a consecration be valid if the Mass is not?
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Yes, you can have a valid Consecration within an illicit Mass.

Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgies are examples. Everything is valid except for their Divine Liturgies because they aren’t in union with Rome.

Are any of these familiar?

Eucharistic Prayers for Masses with Children

Eucharistic Prayers for Masses of Reconciliation

Other Eucharistic Prayers

[quote=axolotl]Are any of these familiar?

Eucharistic Prayers for Masses with Children

Eucharistic Prayers for Masses of Reconciliation

Other Eucharistic Prayers
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Well, my Mass education has grown a lot today…the first link may contain the prayer the priest used, although I don’t remember it being quite like any of them, but my memory isn’t exact, I’m sure.
Thank you.

Dropper,
How did you get to be such a great expert on church apologetics? Why don’t you try dropping that comment about the Orthodox over at the Eastern forum?

Dear Elzee,

The prayer was actually very beautiful and I personally liked it. My concern is if it was valid or not. I recently attended a Mass where the priest (different one) sang the Hallel during the consecration. It was beautiful too - but not allowed.

I’ve also heard the Eucharistic prayer sung/chanted many times also - but never with piano accompaniment and always with silence during the elevation.

Maybe you are correct about having silence during the consecration - I don’t know. In that case, maybe the organist did not realize (s)he should have withheld the music, but played it on her own. I have the feeling your priest would be very honored to have you talk this over with him, for he will be pleased that you were so attentive to the liturgy.

Were you able to read the three Eucharistic Prayers for Children’s liturgies in the link the last poster provided? Ah, so inspiring and lovely. It was a joy to read them, for I don’t often have the opportunity to attend these kind of masses.

God bless you,
Carole

[quote=Joysong]Dear Elzee,

Maybe you are correct about having silence during the consecration - I don’t know. In that case, maybe the organist did not realize (s)he should have withheld the music, but played it on her own. I have the feeling your priest would be very honored to have you talk this over with him, for he will be pleased that you were so attentive to the liturgy.

Were you able to read the three Eucharistic Prayers for Children’s liturgies in the link the last poster provided? Ah, so inspiring and lovely. It was a joy to read them, for I don’t often have the opportunity to attend these kind of masses.

God bless you,
Carole
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I’m not sure about the consecration either, but whatever the pianist did I’m fairly certain was at the direction of the priest since he was singing to the music played and he and everyone also sang during the elevations. I couldn’t tell from the links above if the acclamations were supposed to be sung during the elevations or not. I would be surprised that music and/or singing would be allowed during the elevations, but I’ve been surprised before.

[quote=Elzee]The priest sang the ‘Eucharistic Prayer’, with piano accompaniment…

…Every so often during the Eucharistic prayer, (as the piano played continuously in the background) the cantor would lead the children with part of the ‘Holy Holy Holy’ - usually it was the ‘Hosanna in the highest’ line, but sometimes it was a different part of the song or a variation. We interjected the Eucharistic prayer with this 3 or 4 times. We never really sang or said the whole thing. Well, the piano continued to play and the priest sang the consecration. During the elevation of the host, the cantor (again, while the piano played) led us in a song…the words were something like ‘Blessed be Jesus for dying for us’ or something like that. Never heard it before. We did this during the elevation of the chalice too.
[/quote]

The following quotes from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal and Redemptionis Sacramentummay be helpful (emphasis added):

[quote=RS]While the Priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer “there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent”,except for the people’s acclamations that have been duly approved, as described below. (no. 53)
[/quote]

The footnote to this paragraph references the GIRM, no. 32, which states:

[quote=GIRM]The nature of the “presidential” texts demands that they be spoken in a loud and clear voice and that everyone listen with attention.44 Thus, while the priest is speaking these texts, there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent. (no. 32)
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The GIRM also states that “it is very appropriate that the priest sing those parts of the Eucharistic Prayer for which musical notation is provided.”(no. 147)

Notice that this is limited to the portions of the EP that are specifically included in the Roman Missal with chant notation.

From what you’ve described, the practice at your parish is an abuses. I would speak to the celebrant first, and go from there.

[quote=mgy100]Dropper,
How did you get to be such a great expert on church apologetics? Why don’t you try dropping that comment about the Orthodox over at the Eastern forum?
[/quote]

Orthodox Liturgies are illicit. If the Orthodox don’t think so, they’re wrong…

I may have been misinterpeted due to my wording… I meant that while the Divine Liturgies of Orthodox are valid, they’re still illicit.

[quote=Dropper]Orthodox Liturgies are illicit. If the Orthodox don’t think so, they’re wrong…

I’m sorry you have a problem with it.
[/quote]

I believe that Orthodox liturgies are illicit, not because of a defect in the manner they are celebrated, but because they are celebrated without permission from the proper authorities.

The same goes with liturgies celebrated by the SSPX. They are valid, and would be licit if celebrated under the authority of the Church. But since they’re not, their celebration is illicit.

[quote=muledog]I believe that Orthodox liturgies are illicit, not because of a defect in the manner they are celebrated, but because they are celebrated without permission from the proper authorities.

The same goes with liturgies celebrated by the SSPX. They are valid, and would be licit if celebrated under the authority of the Church. But since they’re not, their celebration is illicit.
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I agree entirely. For a Mass to be licit there has to be the approval of the proper authorities.

They (Orthodox Divine Liturgies) are, I am sure, beautiful and reverent, but illicit none the less…

[quote=muledog]The following quotes from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal and Redemptionis Sacramentum may be helpful (emphasis added):

The footnote to this paragraph references the GIRM, no. 32, which states:

The GIRM also states that “it is very appropriate that the priest sing those parts of the Eucharistic Prayer for which musical notation is provided.”(no. 147)

Notice that this is limited to the portions of the EP that are specifically included in the Roman Missal with chant notation.

From what you’ve described, the practice at your parish is an abuses. I would speak to the celebrant first, and go from there.
[/quote]

How can I find out what parts of the Eucharistic Prayers for Children’s Masses (in the first link above) are noted for for music. That doesn’t seem to be indicated in the document. Will the Roman Missal denote this for these Children’s prayers?

Dear Elzee,

This whole topic has been a springboard for learning, and I thank you for beginning it to us. After searching the following references, I believe your pastor was acting according to the GIRM. I can see where people who read this document on their own without recourse to the pastor, might form misconceptions and think everything is an abuse. :gopray2: Dear God, help our priests to bear with us.

canticanova.com/catalog/products/g_wjws.htm

******

** With Jesus We Sing**

** offers schools and parishes a simple, appealing, musical way to utilize the three Eucharistic Prayers which the Church has adapted for use by young congregations. These Eucharistic Prayers assign to the children many responses, which ideally should be sung. With Jesus We Sing is an effective setting of all these responses with organ accompaniment.

And this from our own Catholic Answers apologist (in part):

jimmyakin.org/2005/04/singing_the_euc.html

It’s understandable why, but you appear to be misreading RS 53 and GIRM 32. Let’s look at them to see where the difficulty is. First, here’s Redemptionis Sacramentum 53:

While the Priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer “there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent”,[GIRM 32] except for the people’s acclamations that have been duly approved, as described below.

You’ll note that the passage states that there is to be no other prayers or singing going on while the priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer. It doesn’t say that he isn’t to sing (or that he isn’t to pray). This is a restriction on what other people can do during this time (note that to the general rule that the people say or sing nothing it makes an exception for the acclamations of the people that are prescribed during this time). It is not a limitation on what the priest does (unless he wanted to play a musical instrument while proclaiming the Eucharistic Prayer, God forbid).

May we all rest in peace. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Carole

I don’t see yet where this clarifies whether or not the priest/congregation sing during the elevations? For example, in EPII, it’s noted like this:
(priest) Take this, all of you, and eat it;
this is my body which will be given up for you.

***All: ***Jesus has given his life for us.

Is the ‘All’’ response supposed to be sung (with music) during the elevations, before, after?? Does it matter?

Sorry this isn’t clear to me yet, but like you said, I have a lot to learn. Thanks!

Hi Elzee,

Is the ‘All’’ response supposed to be sung (with music) during the elevations, before, after?? Does it matter?

Sorry this isn’t clear to me yet, but like you said, I have a lot to learn. Thanks!

I hope you understood that I included myself in the “lot to learn” category, for I don’t know either. This thread has been enlightening.

The “response” is normally sung after, I believe. It would make sense for youngsters to simply acclaim this after the consecration: ***All: *Jesus has given his life for us. I suspect there is more latitude in bringing the acclamation down to a child’s level rather than adopt one of the four generally used in adult liturgies.

For clear certainty, though, the person to speak with is really your priest, along with the organist. The music accompaniment I referenced in the link above, which is permitted for use in children’s liturgies, probably has all of the guidelines for the organist. We would not have access to that information. How did they sing it at the mass you attended?

I’m trusting that these variations are exceptions solely for the children’s liturgies, although I have heard the canon chanted a few times in ours - without accompaniment. To be honest, I don’t care for the EP to be sung, but I respect the occasional desire of the priest to celebrate the Eucharist in this way. Like they say, When in Rome, do as the Romans. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif As long as I can receive the Lord and worship Him in His holy sacrifice, these differences in celebrating do not greatly disturb me. It is truly MY sacrifice, too, and God sees my heart and the intention for which I offer it. Remember the prayer we say just before the preface? May the Lord accept the sacrifice (snip) … for our good and the good of all His Church.

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