Water into GRAPEJUICE?!?!?!?


#1

I FINALLY had the talk I have been dreading with my Baptist preacher dad. We of course talked about the staples of Catholic-hating that Protestants have (sorry, no offense to anyone. I just grew up hating Catholics because thats what my Dad taught me :banghead: ) like: Mary “worship”, the Pope, confession and penance, free-will, OSAS and Transubstantiation. He really thought that it was HILARIOUS that we believe that it is really the body and blood of Christ. But of course, I directed him to the scriptures in his KJV Bible to “this is my body and this is my blood” and I said “if Jesus can turn water into wine, surely He can change unleavened bread into His body and blood!” Well, that opened up a whole new can of worms, and he said that it wasnt wine, because Jesus wouldnt turn water into something someone could get drunk on. I read him the scripture it talks about the fact that it says wine in black and white and that the headwaiter was upset with the groom because he brought out the good wine last, and that alone should tell you it was wine. Oh well, its hard to change the mind of someone who knows everything!!! He also told me “Son, I’ve warned you about drinking, smoking, and drugs and now I’m warning you about the Catholic church”. What am I supposed to say to that?!?! :eek: Since I have joined RCIA and the Church, I have met some of the best Christians I have ever met in my life. But I held my own pretty well using the scripture on all the subjects to back up the Church, but before long it will resort to name-calling on his part. Please just pray for him that God will open his eyes to the fact that I am following God’s word and trying with all my heart to do his will, and also please pray for me so I will have the knowledge and strength to discuss my beliefs in a civilized manner. God bless.


#2

It clearly says wine. I don’t understand either why some insist it’s grape juice. It’s easy to say grape juice if it’s really grape juice, but it isn’t.


#3

Lol, grape juice :rolleyes:

Ah, you should pray for him. Congratulations on coming into the Catholic faith. Out of curiosity, are you to be Confirmed on Saturday at the Easter Vigil?


#4

“Son, I’ve warned you about drinking, smoking, and drugs and now I’m warning you about the Catholic church”.

What am I supposed to say to that?!?!

Addicted to “Christ” … cool!!


#5

No Caesar, I actually approached our RCIA directors on Ash Wednesday, so I wont be confirmed this week. But thanks to the Lord and all my friends here on the Forum, I will be moving up to become a candidate in 3 weeks because they said I have learned so much since I started!!! I’m so excited!!! :smiley:


#6

1869 Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an “unfermented sacramental wine” for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. His achievement marks the beginning of the processed fruit juice industry.

welchs.com/company/company_history.html

Dr Welch was a Prohibitionist. He invented the pasterurization process for the grape. Ole wikipedia says *"In 1869, Welch discovered a method of pasteurizing grape juice so that fermentation was stopped, and the drink was non-alcoholic. He persuaded local churches to adopt this non-alcoholic “wine” for communion services, calling it “Dr. Welch’s Unfermented Wine.” *

From this Im not sure if it was possible to have unfermented grape in Jesus day. ? ?

But seriously your dad probably said it out of frusteration, he doesnt understand why you are going with the Catholic church. Only you can decide why you are, is it because you like the teaching better or are there other reasons?? You should examine your relationship and pray about it with your Priests. It is heart breaking to see a riff in a family. Theres too much in this world.

now Im gonna go have a Ocean Spray as Im thinking about juice now :slight_smile:


#7

I heard a Pastor on Protestant Radio say that it was NOT wine at the Wedding Feast at Cana but had to be grape juice. The reason - their was no time for the wine to ferment. Never mind that the Son of God (the Word) created the heavens and the earth but not wine?


#8

What an exciting time. I have sponsored several people through the RCIA process and it is always a beautiful thing. :slight_smile:

Be patient with your father. He has a lifetime of brainwashing to overcome. Mine, too. He was the son of a Pentecostal minister. To this day, he holds fast to what he was taught, even though he doesn’t go to Church and doesn’t practice any religion.

There is hope, though. He used to refuse to discuss religion. Lately he has started to listen. :thumbsup:

As for the wine/juice debate, there is no distinction between juice and juice so there would be no reason to serve the best first. Wine, on the other hand, diminishes the senses. You serve the best first because that is what people will be able to judge. By the time they get the lesser quality wine, they won’t care.

It was noted that the groom served the best last. As far as I am concerned, there is no doubt that it was wine Jesus made from water. For that matter, it was a LOT of wine, and this was after everyone had “well drunk.”

A chilled glass of zin sounds good right now. Cheers.


#9

The word, I believe, in Greek is oinos. It’s the same word in 1 Timothy 3:8 and Titus 2:3 where the warning is against drinking too much oinos or being addicted to oinos. To put it in the words of my former Greek professor “it ain’t Welch’s!”

What amazes me is that in John 2, Christ not only provides wine–a lot of wine, by the way–he provides the good wine. He knows what he’s doing. :smiley:


#10

Actually, the whole wine v. grape juice ‘thing’ is based upon interpretation of the original biblical texts (and the misunderstanding of those who are against drinking alcoholic beverages).

Hebrew word “yayin” = fermented wine
In Greek, the word for wine is oinos/oy-nos

“Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard. He drank of the wine [yayin] and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent.”

The nay-sayers point out that at the Last Supper, Jesus does not mention wine but instead mentions fruit of the vine (which they choose to interpret as grape juice).

Of course, those who prefer the ‘Welch’s’ approach ignore the fact that it was tradition for the Jews to drink wine and not grape juice at the Passover.:thumbsup:

Perhaps your father needs to brush up on his history.


#11

OSAS???

I just grew up hating Catholics because thats what my Dad taught me :banghead:

Refreshingly honest, that’s what you are.


#12

Uh-oh, not the “t” word. Probably another Catholic invention!


#13

Nope, we can’t be blamed for this one! :wink: Thank the Jews!


#14

I always thought that since Israel is in the Northern Hemisphere, its grapes would harvest in Autumn. Since Passover is always in Spring, and refrigeration was approximately 1900 years away, this was a pretty simple story to tell. I’ve read many, many arguments on these forums where people came up with all manner of contorted ways this wasn’t necessarily so.

At any rate, May God Richly Bless You in your journey into the Church! I will also say a prayer for your dad (possibly a Hail Mary included :eek:).


#15

for mark a Once Saved Always Saved-OSAS


#16

Warned about drinking huh?

That’s funny, master Gichin Funakoshi (the father of Karate-specifically Shotokan.) used to tell his students to be careful when they went out drinking because alcohol can turn one’s friend into an enemy.

However, when it comes to drinking alcohol, I have yet to see a single verse that tells us that it is immoral to drink it. In fact Our Lord was accused of being a drunk IIRC was He not?

It seems to me that this is something added to the way of salvation by some n-Cs. Taking good care of one’s temple is one thing, but judging another mans servant is not something that we are supposed to do…

In the end you look at some folks and whisper, “Oh ye of little faith.”


#17

I posted that the unfermented grape juice was a recent invention. I do not know if this makes it the first time or not, dont know. Someone else could check that then the son, dad and all would know.

As for why Dr Welch invented it, dont know all of it but certainly alcohol has been the reason for a multitude of problems today. So to get rid of it wasnt necessarily a bad idea. I guess someone would have to understand addiction as to why not even in church a alcoholic would not want to test their sobriety. One drink is all it takes for some.


#18

hmm?? good point! … I wonder how long it took for light to form after He said “Let there be light”.


#19

Well, that opened up a whole new can of worms, and he said that it wasnt wine, because Jesus wouldnt turn water into something someone could get drunk on.

Jesus turned the water into grape juice. Then He created the refrigerator. Then He put it all the grape juice in the refrigerator so that it would STAY grape juice. Jesus certainly would have created a way to keep the grape juice from eventually turning into wine, wouldn’t He?

(I think the refrigerator was an A-“manna”) :wink:


#20

Thank you for posting this; it is precisely the information needed here.
And you’re correct, in the part I bolded: In Jesus’ day, it would not have been possible to keep grape juice without it turning into wine. (Or vinegar!)


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