Well those guys aren’t bent on getting their theology right they are more concerned about getting the gotcha questions with the man on the street so they can impress evangelicals who buy tapes to evangelized the unsaved from their point of view of course.
Yeah, unfortunately that’s probably the case. The “are you a good person” test has been around for a while, and they aren’t the first to do it. I used it once when I was protestant (didn’t work too well :shrug: ). Honestly, it can be somewhat effective in certain cases since the majority of westerners believe that the only sin is believing in sin, and that they are indeed good people since there is no sin.
The whole WOTM thing isn’t anything special. It’s just another fundamentalist anti-Catholic sect that happens to have the star of growing pains as its spokesman.
I’ve never seen them confront a knowledgeable Catholic, and I doubt that if they did that they’d put in on their website. If anything, they’d display an ignorant cafeteria Catholic who thinks that Jesus is a good moral teacher.
Invariably the only catholic any of these evangelist every put on is the catholics who says when asked “What do you need to do to get to heaven” if the guy who answers “You just need need to be a good person” Thus the stereotype of catholicism teaching salvation is by works. Heck many protestants answer the same thing but they will show some guy or gal getting out mass who gives this answer they won’t show some guy geting out of his evangelical church answering this although many evangelicals will give you this exact answer.
Well, that was…:shrug: :shrug: …
These people seem to have never heard of God’s grace… Am I the only one who noticed that the word grace was noticeably absent? As was the whole concept…
For guys who say that they are trying to “present the Gospel”, they seem :eek: strangely mired in legalistic notions. Maybe they need to read a little further in their Bibles!!
Why give them any attention at all? Let them fizzle into history. They would never take any real challenges, their minds are set.
That “ministry” is a joke and worse, its aimed at the Jack Chick type that cant think beyond a single verse of Scripture at a time.
That show is entirely rigged, they only post “interviews” where they didnt get their butts handed to them. Instead each interview is presented as if they are out to conquer the world and nobody can stand in their way, and all it takes is a few quick questions and your an expert at preaching the gospel.
The would never show a interview with a Catholic who knew anything, even if all the Catholic knew and mentioned was James 2:24.
LOL, the irony, how can something be so sad and yet so funny at the same time…fundamentalists have found a way!
I have seen that junk in the past, I wanted to make a thread about these guys a while ago…but it was such a joke and it was such a pain getting some real answers off their web page that I just let it go.
Yeah, but it would have been cool to hear an account of someone on here who did confront Kirk and Ray and describe the looks on their faces when they could respond back.
I am not saying that everything that they say is correct - but - the idea is to first show the person by the law that they are sinners…
Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:23 KJV 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Why would anyone look to a Physician unless they realize that they are sick? Is not this the primary reason for the law? To show that we are destitute without God…thet there is no righteousness that we have that could ever merit heaven…
Isaiah 64:6 KJV 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Titus 3:5 KJV 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Why would someone seek God’s mercy if they feel that they are “pretty good”.
They then present to them repentance to turn from the slavemaster of sin and turn to Christ as Lord…
Matthew 16:24-26 KJV 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Acts 3:19 KJV 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And then preach Christ crucified - the payment for sin…the substitute…
1 Peter 3:18 KJV 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 2:24 KJV 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Now - here is where things get hairy and I am studying this now with Mr. Church Militant…
Do they get them to say the sinners prayer??
Do they stop here…
Acts 16:30-31 KJV 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 10:13 KJV 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Then pronounce them saved forever right then and there?? JUSTIFIED!!! Again, this is where things get controversial - otherwise, to this point, you should be praising them for their zeal to win people to Christ. I believe that they are genuinely concerned for the souls of people. Are they flawed in their approach??
Do they seek to disciple these people? Or pronounce them saved and move on to the next group of folks?
The key is - where to go from the point of preaching the gospel - it seems in the book of Acts - they would tell them to be baptized and call upon the name of the Lord. They would then be invited to Church to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ…
2 Peter 3:18 KJV 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
And they would be taught the Word of God whereby they would be sanctified by the power of God’s Word and by the Spirit of God.
Hang on I am looking to see if I can find the old email. I was really nice to them, telling them what they did right but then I pointed out where they went wrong.
Sorry, I just combed through the old emails and I couldn’t find it. I do remember telling them they just weren’t carrying their thought through to the conclusion… Like they stopped just short of speaking the truth on whatever topic it was that night. I think it was on salvation and what we need for salvation but it was long long ago in a galaxy far far away…
Oh wait that was Star Wars… sorry I get it all mixed up (kidding)
I emailed them a rather “cynical” and lengthy reply to the John MacArthur sermon they played and since then I have asked them their opinion on several topics…to no avail. I find it hard to believe they are that popular and cannot reply to individual emails. I attend a non-denominational bible study which heavily uses their material and our leader gets all of his emails responded to…me smells a double standard. It seems if any question is asked that is not within their “once saved always saved/false convert” paradigm they ignore it.
Have you tried emailing John MacArthur? He has said some extremely hateful and untrue things on his own program.
MacArthur is one of those big head protestant pastors who makes himself pope by his own authority and claims all his interpretations right and all other wrong because the holy spirit now infalliably guides him and somehow no longer guides the church he founded and somehow guided to get all the 27 new testament books written, transcribed and copied and canonized exactly right, one time wonder for the holy spirit working in the catholic church I guess.
You need to answer MacArthur, because he is very anti-Catholic. Just do a search on these fora, and you will see threads that show how anti-Catholic MacArthur is.
Way of the Master has one of his anti-catholic sermons to listen to on November 11th I think. Go to www.wayofthemasterradio.com and search in past podcasts for catholic and macarthur. In the sermon which is two hours he denounces any sacramentalism as being contrary to the Protestant doctrine of Sola Fide and thus one who accepts sacraments aren’t Christian…so how he loves Martin Luther yet somehow denounces Lutherans implicitly in his sermon I will never fathom. Luther emphasized sacramentalism constantly!
So yes, he is extremely misguided and effectively condemns Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, and some Presbyterian Christians all in one fell swoop! He also says in that same sermon that the more liturgical, mystical, and sacramental the theology, the more heretical. I always thought the more innovative the theology the more heretical…but that may just be me. I always thought the historical theology Christ left the Apostles was the truth…but Jesus probably had a praise band following Him and He deffinately preached against the Jewish liturgy he obviously took part in every Sabbath…oh wait. :-).
Ah yes superpope John MacArthur hey if your going to reject Catholicism why pretend to be superior to the pope himself but that is exactly what MacArthur does at least Catholicism has 2000 years of history behing its claims MacArthur is going by the holy spirit guiding him to all truth in his lifetime. That John MacArthur must be one special person to get right what most of Christendom has gotten wrong for 2000 years.
Regarding his anti-sacramentalsim I’ll just paraphrase Luther who when responding to the anti-sacramentalism of some of the other reformers. If they are right then the church and all the great fathers has gotten the teaching about the eucharist and baptism wrong from the apostolic age till now or it is they and their novel new ideas that are wrong. I’ll put MacArtuhur and his anit-litrugical bent in the latter category. I also like th story of Luther in the council of Refromers telling the Zwinglians with folded arms the sacrament of the eucharist was the body and blood when they objected he said over and over This is my body, they objected with another arguemet Luther kept on folding his arms and repeating This is my Body. So yeah Luther would have had fist fight with the likes of MacArthur. As a Catholic I appreciate these catholic aspects of Luther while disagreeing on some his exagerations of catholic doctrine that were his tactic of polemics. And even the sola fidei of Luther was very different than than of MacArthur faith. For Luther it also entailed faith in the sacraments that Jesus gave the Church it was not faith disregarding the promises of Jesus regarding being born again of the water and the sprit and the words of Jesus this is my body and this is my blood. Luther beleived this was required in the very notion of faith. MacArthur does not have have faith in the words of Jesus in these key passages he has faith in a pick and choose manner that discounts faith in the sacraments. MacArhur has faith in the passages that MacArhur alone beleives. aka Superpope MacArthur.
The early curch without a doubt was litrugical, sacramental and mystical they would not know of JOhn MacArthur’s fundamentalsit monologue sermons for an hour and a half without particiapation in the sacrament and supported by a white american praise band. And yes your point that Judaism is litrugical and mystical makes his points all the more laughable. He sometimes refers to Catholcism as the Gospel according to Rome well I thik he has a Gospel according to John MacArthur and it involves a lot of mirror worship. What is so funny is that his ministry involves so much mirror worhsip that it inevitably means his ministry is pretty much finished when he dies yet the Catholic Church which he scorns keeps on going strong from pope to pope as we don’t invest an entire theology into one person rather the apostolic tradition is handed one both oral and written from one pope to another one bishop to another just like St Paul recommended. When you disregard all tradition this is what happens, you can’t develop a tradtiion beyond your very own presence once you die you take your tradition with you.
Sorry JOhn MacArthur your self made papacy ends with you.