We are all catholic. We are all defective

We are all catholic. We are all defective.

Fr. Frank does a wonderful job at explaining this! I hope you read this!

That article was really, just a little bit silly. :shrug:

I’m honestly not sure how to respond to such a thing. I guess its understandable that some people react with a bit of annoyance when they see one Christian body that has not caved into total theological relativism.

But, regardless, the entire premise of his article is a bold face lie, which is probably why he didn’t link to the actual article in question, which can be found here:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

The crucial part in questions says:
"“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”

And yet this minister says:
All other Christian denominations and their members “suffer from defects.” and "You’ve probably already heard the news that you are defective too. " “I am a defective Christian.”.

I ask, where in this document does the Church describe anybody in these denominations at all? Much less call them people with “defects”, or “defective people” or “defective Christians.”

Obviously, nowhere. This is really just a temper tantrum disguised as something serious. I don’t think I really have an obligation to read the article more or comment on such nonsense. But, nonetheless.

It still strikes me as amazing that a member of a break away denomination that is now splitting into many more break away denominations would actually take the trouble to write and complain about the Catholic Church actually believing it’s own teachings. He goes on to ask “Who cares?” twice, and yet he clearly cares a big deal seeing as he is writing this somewhat bitter article about the whole situation.

I think the whole thing is really a bit silly, as I said. He said "Protestant Churches stopped caring that Popes thought they had the corner on the God market about 500 years ago. " Well, why should I care what he thinks, then? Who is he, after all? :shrug:

In reality, the Catholic Church is going to keep proclaiming it’s Faith regardless of how much protestants may wish they could become just like them and split into a thousand sects so that nobody can know the truth, and we are going to keep doing it regardless of if people twist the words of documents in a malicious manner so that they can whine about it. :shrug:

Sorry you feel that way.

I’m honestly not sure how to respond to such a thing. I guess its understandable that some people react with a bit of annoyance when they see one Christian body that has not caved into total theological relativism.

:shrug:

But, regardless, the entire premise of his article is a bold face lie, which is probably why he didn’t link to the actual article in question, which can be found here:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

“Bold face lie” :confused:

The crucial part in questions says:
"“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”

And yet this minister says:
All other Christian denominations and their members “suffer from defects.” and "You’ve probably already heard the news that you are defective too. " “I am a defective Christian.”.

I ask, where in his document does the Church describe anybody in these denominations at all? Much less call them people with “defects”, or “defective people” or “defective Christians.”

So if a denomination or Church suffers from defects…that does not make the followers defective in thought and practice?

Obviously, nowhere. This is really just a temper tantrum disguised as something serious. I don’t think I really have an obligation to read the article more or comment on such nonsense. But, nonetheless.

Sorry you see it as a “temper tantrum”…Yes, nonetheless. :slight_smile:

It still strikes me as amazing that a member of a break away denomination that is now splitting into many more break away denominations would actually take the trouble to write and complain about the Catholic Church actually believing it’s own teachings. He goes on to ask “Who cares?” twice, and yet he clearly cares a big deal seeing as he is writing this somewhat bitter article about the whole situation.

I did not see it as bitter. :confused:

I think the whole thing is really a bit silly, as I said. He said "Protestant Churches stopped caring that Popes thought they had the corner on the God market about 500 years ago. " Well, why should I care what he thinks, then? Who is he, after all? :shrug:

Once again, I am sorry you see it a bit silly. :shrug:

In reality, the Catholic Church is going to keep proclaiming it’s Faith regardless of how much protestants may wish they could become just like them and split into a thousand sects so that nobody can know the truth, and we are going to keep doing it regardless of if people twist the words of documents in a malicious manner so that they can whine about it. :shrug:

Not sure non Catholics wish the Roman Church to break apart. That has already happened many times already.

malicious manner and whine? :rolleyes:

The Pope realizes fully that all human beings are defective to one degree or another. He was not talking about the defects of individual Christians. He was talking about defects in their doctrines and beliefs and so the article is founded on a false premise right out of the shoot.

I have to agree with TRH1292. I’m not sure what the point of the article really is and for not really caring, it seems the author cares very much.

Yes are all defective and it was stated that there are some denominations the suffer defects in I suppose in theological areas. So if those denominations suffer defects in their teachings and beliefs then the followers would also suffer defects in their beliefs and understandings.

“I am a defective Christian. This is according to a report released last week by the Catholic Church’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.”

That is a bold face lie. Regardless of what interpretation you might be able to pick out of the document, that is not what was said or even really implied in the document. That makes his statement a lie and he really has misinterpreted the document, and put words in the mouth of the Church that it never used and absolutely does not use.

Furthermore, this minister never said anything about being theologically defective. He made no distinction between theological defect and moral defect at all, which makes his lie even worse because it distorts the truth even more.

I can’t really sum up what he said any other way than just to say its a lie. :shrug:

So if a denomination suffers defects…what does that make the followers? Defective…right?

Of course you will state it is a lie because you are of the Roman Church. You do not believe we are all catholic…or do you?

If I said that protestant communities suffer from defects, because they do not have the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church, and then you posted an article about how I called you a defective person and a defective Christian, and in fact everyone except those who agree with me are defective people, I would have pretty good grounds for calling you a liar.

But you did not answer my question. If Protestant churches suffer from defeacts, according to the RCC, would not their followers be defective??? :confused:

That’s actually irrelevant because regardless of what twisted form of logic you may be able to deduce, the simple fact remains that he claimed the document said something it actually does not say.

And no, I would not use that word at all. I don’t see how people are “defective” because they are in a denomination that does not have the fullness of truth. Am I “defective” if I drive a “defective” car? It’s simply not appropriate or charitable to call an actual person “defective” and the Church does not do that.

…Are you saying that I believe he is lying not because he said something the document didn’t say, but just because I’m a Catholic? Are you seriously saying that?

This article was written July 24, 2007? The point is mute. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Any man who says he is without sin is a liar.

There is one Truth and He is Jesus Christ.

Think it depends pop, here you would be talking communion with Rome. Many openly admit they are not like us in understanding of the Church, we agree. Doesn’t mean the individuals are defective it means they are not in communion with Rome yet still recognized in the Universal Church according to what Councils they hold to, some from the 4th up.

People should not be labeled “defective”. Now, if you ask, “Is there knowledge of the truth defective?” Probably so, I have no idea what they really know, but to a certain extent we all have a defective understanding of truth.

But again, that isn’t what the article said at all. It didn’t say anything about a defective understanding of the truth. It said he was defective.

“Your knowledge of the Truth is defective.” = Your knowledge of truth is lacking or faulty in some way.

“You are a defective Christian/You are a defective person.” = You are lacking and faulty. You are lacking what it means to really be a Christian or a person completely. You are filled with faults.

Aidan,

I have respect for you as a tolerant person, now I would like to know if you are implying the only reason I thought the article was a lying is because I was a Catholic, not because I thought he was actually lying?

Exactly, and this is why correctly put we say we know where the church is, not where it is not. Even when we look at the forth council which many proclaim they are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. And we say Amen! Then we see the same understanding from where pop is, you and I are or some very good Bible only Christians who visit here.

I am sorry for my twisted form of logic. I shall try to straighten it. :slight_smile:

It’s simply not appropriate or charitable to call an actual person “defective” and the Church does not do that.

And saying a denomination may suffer defects is charitable? :confused:

…Are you saying that I believe he is lying not because he said something the document didn’t say, but just because I’m a Catholic? Are you seriously saying that?

I am saying I expected you to disagree with him because you are RC. It is his opinion and the last I checked…opinions are opinions. Kind of different than a lie.

I could not agree more… Christ is a life, our hope and our salvation! :thumbsup:

My name is Dustin but you can call me Pop…my boys do lol.

What was stated in the article and the Vatican is that denominations “may suffer defects.” And I completely agree. I am a defective Christian. I do not claim otherwise. If I were not defective…I would not need Christ.

The reason Fr. Frank said we are defective Christians is because 1) we are defective and 2) if the Vatican states that some may suffer defects then he gathered, his opinion which does not make it a lie as some have stated, is that if a denominations suffers defects than would not their beliefs and theology be defective?

Having read the OP’s article, and the statement in question, I can safely conclude that Catholic Church is not calling individuals “defective” (although, IMHO, we all have our problems); it is calling the doctrines of their churches and communities defective.

For example, I am Orthodox. The Catholic Church would consider my church defective in that it does not submit to the authority of the Pope. However, I do not think the Catholic Church would call me defective (compared to its own members), as, according to them, the Holy Spirit can work in all things, including my “defective” church. Naturally, I believe that my church holds the fullness of the faith, and that the Catholic Church is defective, but I would not call Roman Catholics defective people.

I think the article is more of a personal rant than an honest critique of the statements issued forth. It reflects the Protestant views of the author through and through.

I kind of touched on it in my last post but I am not saying you are calling him a liar because you are Roman Catholic. Calling him a liar for having an opinion is kind of harsh.

It is an opinion piece. What is believes that by saying a denomination or Church may suffer defects…he feels that by stating that…one could gather that if you follow a church that is “defective” then one that follows would be defective in their beliefs.

No.
“We are all catholic.” <— That is his opinion, he is entitled to it.
"“I am a defective Christian. This is according to a report released last week by the Catholic Church’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.” ,<---- That is a lie and a misrepresentation.

I’m not surprised I disagreed with him. I am surprised that he spoke a falsehood about what the document said and claimed. It would be the same if he was quoting a Methodist document in the same way.

And you are once again making it about moral defects and faults in people instead of about theology in a church body. I’m not sure why you feel the need to do that.

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