"We Believe Scripture, Except When It Supports Catholic Dogma"


#1

drbible1611 claims to be an ex-Catholic who is now a King James Version Only fundamentalist.

He also claims to be familiar with the Catholic Catechism and other Church documents.

He also claims to hew to sola scriptura.

We will put these claims to the test.

Here is John 6. I want to see how KJV-only fundamentalists interpret the clear commands of Christ—using Scripture alone. Not one word of man-made intepretation will be allowed.

Let’s see how someone who claims to cling only to Scripture does when every other aid is removed.

Feel free to call foul if either drbible1611 or myself injects so much as one word of interpretation, starting now.

John 6:

1: After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
2: And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
3: And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
4: And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
5: When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
6: And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
7: Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
8: One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, saith unto him,
9: There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
10: And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11: And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
12: When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
13: Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
14: Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15: When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
16: And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
17: And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
18: And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
19: So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
20: But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
21: Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
22: The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23: (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks.)
24: When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25: And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26: Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27: Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30: They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31: Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34: Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36: But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42: And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43: Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45: It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46: Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48: I am that bread of life.
49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58: This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59: These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60: Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68: Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69: And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71: He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


#2

So far, so good! :thumbsup:

:slight_smile:


#3

I hate stuff like this. Let’s stick it to so and so who claims to be a so and so. So let’s settle this!!

Ick, says I.


#4

Your distaste is duly noted, you will note in the OP that drbible1611 requested this thread. I am accommodating him.

Apologetics does require conflict at times. Truth must be defended, often vigorously.

Besides, it should be an easy thing for drbible1611 to school a new Catholic in such things.


#5

Who was it (Sheen?) that noted the areas where most Protestants disagree with Catholics are the areas where the Catholic Church takes the Bible at face value?

It is sooooo true.


#6

I don’t see it the way you see it. Surely these are not attacks that are ad hominem. These are defenses against the claim that the Eucharist is not really Jesus, that’s it, simple as that. No personal attacks here.

Anyway, drbible1611 asked for the thread and he’s not even here. What gives? :shrug:


#7

He’s in Australia, so the time difference is likely to blame. He will hopefully appear within the next 12 hours.


#8

Has anyone counted the many times Jesus mentions that we have to eat His flesh?

SEVEN TIMES! He says 7 times that we have to eat His flesh! He kept on reassuring everyone who “quarreled among themselves” and didn’t believe that they had to eat His flesh. Doesn’t that count for something? It counts for everything!

Please watch my video, Jesus Christ in the Eucharist - The Real Presence. The bible should speak for itself on John 6 but there are people who need it spelled out for them.


#9

This is so true. Even Truth Himself defended Himself. John 6 is the best example in the Bible of Truth defending Himself.

He defended the Truth so much so that he had to repeat Himself several times. He mentions 7 times that we have to eat His flesh or we will have no life in us. No life? :eek: I want to live forever so I will do as Jesus says.

A better reason for me to want to partake of the Bread of Life, which is Jesus Himself, is that I want to be with Him forever! I know that is Jesus in the Eucharist and He feeds me with the everlasting Bread of Life. I dread the loss of Jesus because I love Him so much. The Mass is what keeps me alive! Thank you Jesus for allowing us to partake of your Body & Blood!


#10

Oh, okay. :slight_smile:


#11

You and the Archbishop are absolutely correct.


#12

My evangelical friends keep throwing scripture in my face to prove their points but whenever I use the Bible to back up my catholic faith they usually act as though what I am saying holds no meaning. I will be enterested to watch this thread.:thumbsup:


#13

While I am not drbible and am not a KJV only evangelical Christian, if its ok I’d like to comment as I am not at work today.

Most conservative evangelical christians do not take a hyperliteral approach to Scripture. Yes we believe 100% in its inspiration but that is not the same as hyperliteralism. The approach that you are implying on the words of Christ in this pasasge, if one were to believe your interpretation is that of hyperliteralism and is indeed what the Pharisees heard. Hence John’s comment in verse 52 "John 6:52
Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
TNIV

The answer to our interpretation is found in Jesus’ own summary at the end of the chapter.

John 6:60-65

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
TNIV

The passage of John chapter 6 is self explanatory without taking a hyperliteral approach and John follows this style throughout his entire gospel.

Now … if we are to ignore Jesus’ own interpretation of his words and pull the preceding verses out of context and apply a hyperliteral interpretation to them what happens if we are to remain consistent with the rest of John’s gospel?

In chapter 6 He said “I am the bread of life”.
In chapter 8 He said “I am the light of the world”.
In chatper 10 “I am the door”.
Chapter 15 “I am the true vine”

If we are to maintain consistency in a hyperliteral approach then we must also believe that Jesus is a beam of light, a door and a plant. I think you would agree this is absurd.

Hope this helps clarify why we believe what we do according to the passage in its context.

Kind regards,
the Logos


#14

And while I don’t hold the writings of the Early Fathers in the same esteem I do Scripture I find Augustine’s commentary on the very passage agreeable with my own interpretation. In his tractate on the Gospel of John, Tractate 26 he says rather plainly …

Tractate 26 - John 6:41-59 paragraph 1.

  1. When our Lord Jesus Christ, as we have heard in the Gospel when it was read, had said that He was Himself the bread which came down from heaven, the Jews murmured and said, “Is not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” These Jews were far off from the bread of heaven, and knew not how to hunger after it. They had the jaws of their heart languid; with open ears they were deaf, they saw and stood blind. This bread, indeed, requires the hunger of the inner man: and hence He saith in another place, “Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.” But the Apostle Paul says that Christ is for us righteousness. And, consequently, he that hungers after this bread, hungers after righteousness,-that righteousness however which cometh down from heaven, the righteousness that God gives, not that which man works for himself. For if man were not making a righteousness for himself, the same apostle would not have said of the Jews: “For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and wishing to establish their own righteousness, they are not subject to the righteousness of God.” Of such were these who understood not the bread that cometh down from heaven; because being satisfied with their own righteousness, they hungered not after the righteousness of God. What is this, God’s righteousness and man’s righteousness? God’s righteousness here means, not that wherein God is righteous, but that which God bestows on man, that man may be righteous through God. But again, what was the righteousness of those Jews? A righteousness wrought of their own strength on which they presumed, and so declared themselves as if they were fulfillers of the law by their own virtue. But no man fulfills the law but he whom grace assists, that is, whom the bread that cometh down from heaven assists. “For the fulfilling of the law,” as the apostle says in brief, “is charity.” Charity, that is, love, not of money, but of God; love, not of earth nor of heaven, but of Him who made Heaven and earth. Whence can man have that love? Let us hear the same: “The love of God,” saith he, “is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us.” Wherefore, the Lord, about to give the Holy Spirit, said that Himself was the bread that came down from heaven, exhorting us to believe on Him. For to believe on Him is to eat the living bread. He that believes eats; he is sated invisibly, because invisibly is he born again. A babe within, a new man within. Where he is made new, there he is satisfied with food.

Paragraph 12

Tractate 26 - John 6:41-59

  1. “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven.” Manna signified this bread; God’s altar signified this bread. Those were sacraments. In the signs they were diverse; in the thing which was signified they were alike. Hear the apostle: “For I would not that ye should be ignorant, brethren,” saith he, “that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat.” Of course, the same spiritual meat; for corporally it was another: since they ate manna, we eat another thing; but the spiritual was the same as that which we eat. But “our” fathers, not the fathers of those Jews; those to whom we are like, not those to whom they were like. Moreover he adds: “And did all drink the same spiritual drink.” They one kind of drink, we another, but only in the visible form, which, however, signified the same thing in its spiritual virtue. For how was it that they drank the “same drink”? “They drank,” saith he “of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.” Thence the bread, thence the drink. The rock was Christ in sign; the real Christ is in the Word and in flesh. And how did they drink? The rock was smitten twice with a rod; the double smiting signified the two wooden beams of the cross. “This, then, is the bread that cometh down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die.” But this is what belongs to the virtue of the sacrament, not to the visible sacrament; he that eateth within, not without; who eateth in his heart, not who presses with his teeth.

Peace,
the Logos


#15

Quick test.

“All have sinned.” What does that mean?


#16

Sorry, thelogos, but Scripture Alone here. We’re playing by drbible1611’s rules, stated in the originating thread. No tradition allowed.

Moreover, I’m humoring him with KJV-only passages.


#17

No prob. Didn’t mean to veer off the track. Disregard my latter post as only the former applies then.

Kind regards,
Logos


#18

Not at all—we may come back to it later, I just want to give drbible1611 his chance to show his stuff by his own rules.

Keep that powder dry!


#19

doh… how’d you know I just got out of the shower? :eek: :smiley:


#20

The Catholic Answers Webcam, of course.

We like to keep an eye on people in case the Grand Internet Inquisitor has any questions for them.


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