'We had no choice'

When St.-Sgt. S. fast-roped down from an air force Black Hawk helicopter onto the *Mavi Marmara *Turkish passenger ship on Monday morning, he did not expect to be landing in what he called “a battlefield” and facing off against a group of “murderous mercenaries.”

The 15th and last naval commando from Flotilla 13 (the Shayetet) to rappel down onto the ship from the helicopter, S. said on Thursday that he was immediately attacked by what the IDF has called “the mob of mercenaries” aboard the vessel, just like the soldiers who had boarded just before him.

Looking to his side, he saw three of his commanders lying wounded – one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and another with a gunshot wound to the knee. A third was lying unconscious; his skull was fractured by a devastating blow with a metal bar.

jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445

Please don’t confuse the Israel haters with the facts. It only upsets them.

The Jerusalem Post? HA!

[quote="EmperorNapoleon, post:3, topic:200686"]
The Jerusalem Post? HA!

[/quote]

Didn't I tell you?

Could we please have some proof that this account is not correct? It certainly seems to confirm what we've seen in the videos.

What we see in the videos is a group of civilians defending their ship in international waters from being pirated by a bunch of AK-47 wielding commandos dropping from the sky.

[quote="EmperorNapoleon, post:5, topic:200686"]
What we see in the videos is a group of civilians defending their ship in international waters from being pirated by a bunch of AK-47 wielding commandos dropping from the sky.

[/quote]

Seems to me it's their word against the Israelis, and you are taking the side of the "civilians." Why didn't this happen on the other 5 boats? Why did it only happen on this boat? The other boats didn't attack, why did the people on this boat attack the Israelis?

Just curious - have you ever supported Israel in any way? Or are you just against them in principle?

Of course they had a choice. They could have *not *sent armed men to hijack a civilian vessel in international waters in the middle of the night. Just who do the Israelis think they are? Do they think the crew had some legal obligation to roll out a red carpet and give them presents? Israel constantly claims it 'had no choice' whenever it does something indefensible (which is becoming increasingly regular), this crazy state needs to be brought under control before it blows up the whole Middle East and brings disaster not just on its neighbours but also on itself.

[quote="Kadaveri, post:7, topic:200686"]
Of course they had a choice. They could have *not *sent armed men to hijack a civilian vessel in international waters in the middle of the night. Just who do the Israelis think they are? Do they think the crew had some legal obligation to roll out a red carpet and give them presents? Israel constantly claims it 'had no choice' whenever it does something indefensible (which is becoming increasingly regular), this crazy state needs to be brought under control before it blows up the whole Middle East and brings disaster not just on its neighbours but also on itself.

[/quote]

This "crazy" state HAS to defend itself against the surrounding states who would dearly LOVE to see them completely destroyed. If I where that same cat in the corner you darn well better believe I'd be fighting like my life depended on it. :nunchuk:

[quote="Kadaveri, post:7, topic:200686"]
Of course they had a choice. They could have *not *sent armed men to hijack a civilian vessel in international waters in the middle of the night. Just who do the Israelis think they are? Do they think the crew had some legal obligation to roll out a red carpet and give them presents? Israel constantly claims it 'had no choice' whenever it does something indefensible (which is becoming increasingly regular), this crazy state needs to be brought under control before it blows up the whole Middle East and brings disaster not just on its neighbours but also on itself.

[/quote]

It will have a little help from its neighbors too. I'm sure if they didn't have Israel to kick around, many would be going after their own government.

[quote="Kadaveri, post:7, topic:200686"]
Of course they had a choice. They could have *not *sent armed men to hijack a civilian vessel in international waters in the middle of the night. Just who do the Israelis think they are? Do they think the crew had some legal obligation to roll out a red carpet and give them presents? .

[/quote]

And if I had a boat that the Coast Guard tried to board...and met them with guns and clubs, would that have been any more justified?

I would not have an obligation to roll out a red carpet, but pulling firearms and clubs on them would likewise be bad for my health:rolleyes:

[quote="Kadaveri, post:7, topic:200686"]
Of course they had a choice. They could have *not *sent armed men to hijack a civilian vessel in international waters in the middle of the night. Just who do the Israelis think they are? Do they think the crew had some legal obligation to roll out a red carpet and give them presents? Israel constantly claims it 'had no choice' whenever it does something indefensible (which is becoming increasingly regular), this crazy state needs to be brought under control before it blows up the whole Middle East and brings disaster not just on its neighbours but also on itself.

[/quote]

Israel does have the right to stop terrorist’s cowards who target women and children from entering their AO—period!

Oh these ships are to bring in medical supplies and humanitarian aid only—since when is AK47’s humanitarian aid?

These crazy terrorists cowards needs to be brought under control before it blows up the whole Middle East and brings disaster not just on its neighbors but also on [FONT=Arial]themselves[/FONT].

[quote="Brooklyn, post:6, topic:200686"]
Seems to me it's their word against the Israelis, and you are taking the side of the "civilians." Why didn't this happen on the other 5 boats? Why did it only happen on this boat? The other boats didn't attack, why did the people on this boat attack the Israelis?

[/quote]

First of all, those civilians had the right to defend themselves and their vessel from this act of piracy. Second, the others likely didn't defend themselves because they were afraid of being murdered. This ship had a lot of people onboard and there's more safety in numbers.

[quote="Brooklyn, post:6, topic:200686"]
Just curious - have you ever supported Israel in any way?

[/quote]

Sure, but not this time.

[quote="stanmaxkolbe, post:11, topic:200686"]
Israel does have the right to stop terrorist’s cowards who target women and children from entering their AO—period!]

[/quote]

Then it better start going after the IDF and IBP.

[quote="stanmaxkolbe, post:11, topic:200686"]
Oh these ships are to bring in medical supplies and humanitarian aid only—since when is AK47’s humanitarian aid?

[/quote]

The only guns onboard were those taken from the pirates.

[quote="EmperorNapoleon, post:5, topic:200686"]
What we see in the videos is a group of civilians defending their ship in international waters from being pirated by a bunch of AK-47 wielding commandos dropping from the sky.

[/quote]

here's one of the videos. Tell me at what point do you see an AK? I can tell you that the weapons shown at the end aren't (what looks to be paintball guns and at the very end a pistol (as of 0:37 the "peaceful" aid workers are similarly armed).

[quote="CDNowak, post:13, topic:200686"]
here's one of the videos. Tell me at what point do you see an AK? I can tell you that the weapons shown at the end aren't (what looks to be paintball guns and at the very end a pistol (as of 0:37 the "peaceful" aid workers are similarly armed).

[/quote]

LOL! Yeah, Israel arms it's commandos with paintball guns. Yeah, right. :rotfl: In terms of the civilians, the only guns they had were taken from the Israeli pirates.

I can't understand why Israel doesn't understand that it has become the pariah among the nations. Our best ally? Actually, we seem to be its only ally. Turkey had been friendly, but now that relationship is imperiled.

Our alliance with Israel is at the root of our conflict with the Muslims. Had we been smarter, and less subject to AIPAC political pressure, we would have resolved that situation years ago by forcing a two-state solution upon both the Israelis and Palestinians. Instead, we have spent over 60 years financing Israel (over 100 billion), supplying it with our latest arms, and vetoing resolutions in the UN asking Israel to stop building settlements on Palestinians land. They already had 70% of old Palestine but they keep building more and more settlements, along with Jewish-only roads to each of them. Why would a country genuinely committed to peaceful negotiation do this?

Israel is its own worst enemy. It seems to exude arrogance, as though the Palestinians are vermin - I believe some Israeli official called them grasshoppers or some such statement. I have visited the Holy Land four times, and in talking with Christians there came away with the impression that the Israelis are mainly responsible for the rise of Islamic radicalism. Actually, Israel first encouraged the formation of Hamas to compete with Arafat and Fatah, and look at what developed as a result.

Israel is helping Al Qaeda and other Islamist extremists who use our no-matter-what support for Israel to drum up more and more terrorists. Ironic, isn't it? Our ally aiding our enemy. We ask the Israelis not to build more settlements, and they thumb their noses. 

 The only rational policy for the USA is to be genuinely pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian. There is a case for both sides, but we have been misled into favoring only one side and demonizing the other. The Palestinians, Christians and Muslims, have been treated like dirt and it needs to stop. Certainly our tax money should not be underwriting such outrageous Israeli policies. And as for Israel being a democracy - very questionable. No Christian evangelism permitted. No Jewish-Christianj marriages permitted. Jewish-only roads. Shelters to protect Jews from bad weather at bus stops, no Palestinians allowd. Jewish Sabbath laws strictly enforced - no TV, buses, etc., Friday night to Saturday night. And we could go on. Yes, they have elections, but Hitler had elections.

  I want Israel to survive, and America to prosper. To achieve these goals, our policy toward Israel must change. At the moment, Israel is despised around the world, in large part because of its own arrogance and state terrorism.

 I could go and on and on, but I hope everybody has read "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy" by two professors - Walt and another.

By the way, do you recall Rachel Corriw, after whom the new humanitarian vessel is named? She was a young American college student who tried to save a Palestinian home about to be bulldozed by an Israeli wrecking crew. She was run over and killed! Or, have you raed of the Liberty event some years ago. Look it up. See how it was bombed by Israel, etc. Lots and lots of history Americans don't know. Sadly, our media is controlled by pro-Israeli people, our Congress is intimidated by AIPAC and its allies. The best president on this issue was Eisenhower who told Israel to 'get out' when it launched an invasion of Egypt in 1956. We've been led to believe that Israel is always being attacked. The facts are quite different. Not enough time or space here to elaborate.

God bless Jews, Palestinians, all sorts of Christians and all God's children.

[quote="EmperorNapoleon, post:5, topic:200686"]
What we see in the videos is a group of civilians defending their ship in international waters from being pirated by a bunch of AK-47 wielding commandos dropping from the sky.

[/quote]

I have sympathy with that view. If Iran had killed people on a European-registered boat in the Mediterranean in order to prevent weapons being "smuggled" to Israel or anti-govt guerrillas in Iran, I doubt many would defend it. However...

(1) If what the Israelis claim is true, it was a VERY bad idea to use violence to defend yourself against a trigger-happy heavily-armed Navy attempting to detaining you in international waters (but that you know will almost certainly let you go fairly soon), since there is no chance of success. And if the IDF were truly just inspecting the ship, then it would be even crazier to initiate violence.

So if people on the boats used violence first, they were being agents provacateurs--good for propaganda, but not good as far as keeping their comrades alive. One person took a baby with them on one of those boats. After what the Israelis did to Lebanon (admittedly after provocation) a few years ago I wouldn't run an Israeli blockade with my baby. That's crazy.

(2) However, if the activists are right and Israel fired first (possibly from the air) then any activists using metal bars etc. were actually fighting for their lives against, in effect, murderous pirates.

IMHO, either scenario could have happened. I fully believe the IDF may have been crazy enough to fire first, but hope they didn't. And I also believe some of the activists may have been crazy enough to attack Israeli soldiers first in the hope that people would get killed, reflecting badly on Israel. If Israel released all the video footage from both sides that they seized it might help determine what really happened.

PS I read in this morning's paper that one passenger aboard the seized ship was shot four times in the head an once in the chest. That tells me something. To attack a ship in the dark with guns of all sorts in international waters is an outrage. The fact that the passengers were sympathetic to the people of Gaza is no excuse. I am sympathetic to the people of Gaza, both because of their Hamas government and the Israeli blockade. True, they shouldn't have elected Hamas, but they became so frustrated after so many decades of iron-fist occupation that I can understand why. Israeli intransigence has been condemned by Gen. Patraeus among others. He and other military leaders know that such Israeli policies only serve to strengthen Islamic terrorists and hurt our efforts against terrorism.

[quote="jman507, post:9, topic:200686"]
It will have a little help from its neighbors too. I'm sure if they didn't have Israel to kick around, many would be going after their own government.

[/quote]

That is very true. Israel's existence, the occupation, the refugees and lack of a peace settlement are very useful scapegoats for Arab dictatorships.

[quote="Roy5, post:15, topic:200686"]
Our [the US] alliance with Israel is at the root of our conflict with the Muslims. Had we been smarter, and less subject to AIPAC political pressure, we would have resolved that situation years ago by forcing a two-state solution upon both the Israelis and Palestinians. Instead, we have spent over 60 years financing Israel (over 100 billion), supplying it with our latest arms, and vetoing resolutions in the UN asking Israel to stop building settlements on Palestinians land. .

[/quote]

I firmly believe the US govt could have forced Israel into some kind of two-state peace deal involving leaving most of the West Bank, and that most Palestinians (however grudgingly) would have had to accept--possibly involving Western peacekeepers being involved around the occupied territories. The US has certainly been kinder to Israel's occupation (money, arms) than to what it considers to be a Turkish occupation of Northern Cyprus (trade embargo).

If Israel had given back the West Bank & Gaza to Jordan & Egypt shortly after the Six Day War as part of a peace deal, a lot of the Palestinian issues would be Jordan & Egypt's problem now (exc,. perhaps refugees still dreaming of returning to ancestral lands within the Green Line).

I pray for a just, durable peace in the Holy Land, and very saddened it still seems decades off, with members of all sides being at fault.

[quote="EmperorNapoleon, post:12, topic:200686"]
First of all, those civilians had the right to defend themselves and their vessel from this act of piracy. Second, the others likely didn't defend themselves because they were afraid of being murdered. This ship had a lot of people onboard and there's more safety in numbers.

So why didn't the people on the other boats feel they needed to defend themselves? The people on these boats knew they were going against a blockade, and not just by Israel but also a blockade by Egypt. They knew they weren't suppose to be there. There was no "piracy" here by the Israelis. They had warned these people before the ships ever left Turkey. Do you think that maybe that had something to do with how the "activists" reacted? Do you think that maybe that is why the Israelis boarded the ship they way they did? As stated in an ABC News report done before the attack:

"Nine ships carrying hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid and 600 pro-Palestinian activists are bound for the Gaza Strip today in an attempt to break through Israel's 3-year-old blockade of the Hamas-run coastal territory.

Israel says it is determined to prevent the ships from reaching their destination, and a detention camp has been prepared in the nearby Israeli port of Ashdod to process and deport those taking part in the flotilla. Naval patrol vessels and high-speed missile boats are preparing to confront the ships, which are expected in the area Saturday morning. "

abcnews.go.com/International/flotilla-heads-gaza-blockade/story?id=10767663

These "activists" knew exactly what they were doing. And that is why they responded as they did when the Israelis went on board.

[/quote]

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