We Share with God Making His Eternal Decisions

“WHAT HAVE WE NOT GIVEN YOU AND SHARED WITH YOU …
OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS?”
All you Vibrant Sons and Daughters of God – 7 Sept 2011
We creatures? Share with God in His Eternal Decisions? Decisions made before we were born on the earth? Yes, I believe so. But how could this possibly be? Yes, that’s a big question.

A number of matters are involved and attention must be paid to them. In this opening posting I will offer a list of some of these important matters. In following posts, interacting with all you, I intend to examine each of these matters.

  1. God’s Divine Nature does not and absolutely cannot change.

  2. God Knows with absolute certainty, in His Divine decision to create, all the future free choice actions of human beings, good and bad.

  3. “And whatever you ask in my Name, I will do …” John 14:13. / “If you ask anything of me in my Name, I will do it.” John 14:14 / “If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.” John 15:7 / And so on > John 15:16 and John 16:23 and John 16:24 and miore. Do we understand what is meant here? Why doesn’t every little boy get his new red bicycle for Christmas? especially when he prayed in Jesus’ Name … with no doubt in his heart … and even prayed to Jesus’ Holy Mother Mary?

  4. When we speak of “before” and “after,” we almost always mean a time relationship. It will be important that we speak in terms of “prior” and “consequent,” which do not necessarily involve time at all … but rather an order of things.

  5. God is Infinite Love … Infinite Sharing. To what extent will God Share with us? What is the metaphysical limit – if there IS such a limit – to God’s Sharing with us?

  6. The matter of predestination is a fact – however it may be understood – and is involved in this whole matter.

  7. God Wills some things to happen infallibly and they will most certainly happen. God permits, allows, some other thing to happen or not happen, and we are involved here. How?

  8. God Knew before I was born that 15 July 2013 I would steal $100. This is a free choice act I should not do. God does not want me to do it. I freely did wrong. How did God Know before I was born? … and yet in no way cause me to do wrong?

And, I’m sure, more new questions will arise as we share posting here. All of these things are related somehow to any sharing we might have in making God’s Eternal Decisions.

Personally, it all sounds very exciting. Let us all ask together in our hearts each time we post that the Holy Spirit will Bless us and Guide us and prompt us and block us – whatever we need.
Blessing in Jesus and Mary to us all! John (JohnJFarren)

Here’s a simple way to look at it:

God willed from all eternity that XYZ happen.

In the case of X, He willed that it happen through His direct action independent of any creature.

In the case of Y, He willed that it happen through the free choice of a creature.

In the case of Z, He willed that it happen through His direct action, but in response to a free choice of a creature, such as a petition.

All were/are parts of God’s infallible plan for history, but from the perspective of us living in that history they come about in different ways, in some cases involving our free will.

Grace & Peace!

John, I’m excited to see how this discussion progresses, and am excited, too, to participate to the best of my ability. To maybe help the discussion get going, I’d like to gently touch on the opening premise, “We Share with God Making His Eternal Decisions.” My understanding is that this is saying nothing more, and certainly nothing less, than: by grace, we are co-creators with God of the new creation, a new creation which we have learned and are learning to call “Church” which is none other than a new way of relating to God and each other centered on the self-giving love of God in Christ–participating in this love, building up and being built up by the new creation are all ways of talking about the same thing which is a real participation in the life of God in, through and with the Body of Christ. Does that sound about right to you?

Thanks, John! And Happy Feast of the Nativity of Our Lady (which is very apropos of this topic)!!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

MAY THE LOVE AND MERCY OF GOD IN JESUS CHRIST
POUR BLESSING ON ALL THOSE KILLED 11 SEPT 2001
AND UPON ALL THOSE WHO HAVE AND CONTINUE TO
SUFFER > WIVES HUSBANDS CHILDREN PARENTS
AND UPON ALL OTHERS
All you Vibrant Sons and Daughters of God – 11 Sept 2011
We have (possibly) eight areas to pay attention to. All of these are somehow related to the main topic > that we sons and daughters do share with God making His Eternal Decisions. My intention is not to permit ourselves to go far afield – as we’re certainly drawn to do as we touch these eight areas. I’ll share with you what I have … and invite you to critique, negatively or positively, what I post. I might agree or disagree with you … and then I’ll try to move on. We begin >

1) God’s Divine Nature does not and cannot change. I’m not thinking here of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word … because certainly the human nature of Jesus could and did change and develop. And so, Jesus Christ, yes, God, could and did change. Rather, I’m thinking of the Divine Nature in Godself.

To change necessarily means to gain something … or to lose something. To me it is self-evident that God cannot gain anything God doesn’t already have. And to me it is self-evident that God cannot lose anything.

Did Jesus lose Judas? Yes, he did. Yes, God IN HIS HUMAN NATURE did lose Judas. God in God’s Divine Nature cannot lose anything.

I am basing anything I may have to share on the Absolute and Divine Truth that the Divine Nature absolutely cannot change.

May the Holy Spirit Bless us all! John (JohnJFarren)

“WHAT HAVE WE NOT GIVEN YOU AND SHARED WITH YOU …
OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS?”
All you Vibrant Sons and Daughters of God – 13 Sept 2011
We creatures? Share with God in His Eternal Decisions? Decisions made before we were born on the earth? Yes, I believe so. But how could this possibly be? And yes, that’s a big question.

I’d like to offer some insights on statement #2 in the opening posting. Statement 2) reads, God Knows with absolute certainty, in His Divine decision to create, all the future free choice actions, good and bad, of human beings.

St Thomas Aquinas treats this matter in his Summa Theologica … Section I, Question 14, Article 13. I leave it to you to read this article yourself. I don’t wish merely to refer to Aquinas and consider things closed. In logic that fallacy is called an argument ad hominem … something to be accepted merely because some significant person said so. Thomas’ article is, however, most profitable to read and understand.

Here’s how I see things. (I used a following example some years ago in teaching a Philosophy Elective course … and I think it proved successful.) We creatures live in time, a past we remember (more or less), a present that vanishes before we can complete the word “present,” and a future about which we can guess. The future is almost completely unknown to us.

God, Infinite Being, however, Exists in Eternity. All things … which to us are past, present, and future … are present to God, not as some future movie, but in their very actual happening. (It is misleading to speak of God “foreknowing” the future. God does not fore-Know, Know beforehand. God Knows what you do tomorrow [your language] in God’s NOW … and God Knows your tomorrow in its actual happening NOW.

An example I used > I sat up front in the classroom. In front of me on my desk is a huge object that completely blocks everyone in the room from seeing something I have right in front of me. No one in the class knows what that something is. (Actually it’s a set of my keys that I placed there.) I ask the class to tell me what it is I’ve concealed from them. Of course, no one can. Why? Because they don’t know and they can’t see.

But I know. How can I know? I’M LOOKING AT IT! Good grief! that’s no big deal! That’s no miracle!

If that sounds extremely simple … that’s because it is.

God does not see my future actions because God Himself made the choices. God sees the “KEYS” simply because He’s LOOKING at them. It is true that my actions are involved with God as First Cause. I am empowered by God, as a real secondary cause, to freely choose my actions. (This is another matter and I’d like to temporarily side-step it … and return later.)

May the Holy Spirit Bless us both in matters philosophical and theological!
John (Allandnothing)

“MAKE US WORTHY TO SHARE ETERNAL LIFE
WITH MARY AND ALL THE SAINTS” Euch Prayer 2
To all my brothers and sisters in Christ – 18 Sept 2011 #3
Aren’t we sometimes puzzled by Jesus’ words … repeated very many times in slightly varied words, “If you ask anything of me in my Name, I will do it”? John 14:14. I must admit that in past years I have often wondered about their true meaning. (And by the way, note the difference between the literal meaning and another meaning, a spiritual meaning, which we know somehow is there. But what is the real meaning?)

Not every little girl who asks Jesus in Jesus’ Name … sincerely from her heart … with no doubt in her heart … repeatedly … and who even asks Mary, Jesus’ mother, to ask with her … gets for Christmas the golden-haired , large doll she begged for. Moreso than for us “mature” adults can this be a serious problem for a child. How would you explain that satisfactorily to a child? … to yourself?

I see three things. I see a correct Scriptural explanation … and I see what at first seems a great let down for us. And then I see a tenderness we might overlook.

St John tells us in his first epistle, “We have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything that is according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours.” 1 John 5:14-15.

I think you see immediately the words that we need … “…anything that is according to his will.” Well, that solves that. But I must say that I feel rather let down. First you brighten me up … and then you flatten me down. You mean that it’s not what I want in my prayer that’s promised? that it’s God’s Will that’s promised?

Yes. We adults should have the sense to say to ourselves, “Something’s not clear here. I’m not understanding something.” If we can be bothered, what about a child? We adults should be able to handle this, first for ourselves, and then for our children.

God’s Wisdom is Infinite. God Knows far beyond our abilities what is truly good for us, what is truly better for us, what is truly best for us … and what is harmful to us and what is simply putting a brake on our spiritual developing. Or would we prefer our understandings, so powerfully influenced by our imperfect emotions, so prone to self-centeredness.

We are told as Christians that we must walk by faith, by a childlike trust in God’s Infinite Love for us. God Loves us Infinitely and with a tenderness and intimacy far beyond anything we humans know. It is far, far better to ask for this or that, yes, and to trust God’s Love as to what response God will give us.

I have begged for some very important things during recent past years. To some of the most important (to me) God has responded, “Not now. Wait.” OR “I don’t want you to go that way.” OR sometimes just a plain, loud, clear, “NO!” Some of these responses I do not and cannot understand until Heaven.

In the Name of Jesus may God pour upon us here the fullness of God’s Blessings, spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical …… John (JohnJFarren)

Ok, a little feedback.

First, just a stylistic note, your manner of writing is a little hard to read. With a few exceptions it seems like something that is being spoken out loud in your head as if to a group, then transcribed in a messy way on your keyboard. I bet you are a good public speaker, but writing and speaking are somewhat different arts. For a start at least I would pay more attention to punctuation. It will likely increase the number of people who read your posts if it is easier to read, and it will start them off with a more favorable impression of you. When I first saw your original post I more than half expected something insane because of the look of the post, which it turns out was not justified.

Now, on number 1, it sounds like your underlying thought is correct but I’m not so sure about your language, focused on nature. Of course the divine nature doesn’t change, but does the human nature change? Since your childhood you have changed physically and mentally, but has the human nature which you share with all other human beings changed since that time?

Ok, a little feedback.

First, to just give a stylistic note, your manner of writing is a little hard to read. With a few exceptions it seems like something that is being spoken out loud in your head as if to a group, then transcribed in a messy way on your keyboard. I bet you are a good public speaker, but writing and speaking are somewhat different arts. For a start at least I would pay more attention to punctuation. It will likely increase the number of people who read your posts if they are easier to read, and it will start them off with a more favorable impression of you. When I first saw your original post I more than half expected something insane because of the look of the post, which it turns out was not justified.

Now, on point # 1, it sounds like your underlying thought is correct but I’m not so sure about your language, focused on nature. Of course the Divine Nature doesn’t change, but does the human nature change? Since your childhood you have changed physically and mentally, but has the human nature which you share with all other human beings changed since that time? We do speak of fallen human nature and redeemed human nature and that would be an interesting subject to look at some other time, but my point is that to say someone’s nature does not change doesn’t mean they are unchanging. The important fact is that God does not change at all, in His Divinity that is. In God of course there is no distinction between His Nature and anything else about Him in His Divinity due to divine simplicity, but that’s a side conversation. Jesus in His human nature did change throughout His life of course while remaining unchanged in His Divine Nature, but this is different than saying His human nature changed.

All this is probably just semantic though, and your underlying concept is solid.

Point # 2 seems like a fine consideration of God being “outside of time” and omniscient. Personally I wouldn’t quibble with traditional terms like foreknowledge, just explain what the word means when applied to God.

Point #3 sounds good for the most part. I’ll add though that I wouldn’t discount the possibility of God willing something to happen, but willing it specifically to happen in response to a petition from a creature. For example consider any miraculous healing performed through the intercession of a saint. On the one hand God “always” knew He would perform the miracle because all times are equally, eternally present to Him and because He sovereignly decided to do it, but on the other hand He evidently decided that it should be done by the intercession of that saint. It would be silly to speculate whether God would have done it without the intercession of the saint since it’s clear it was His will that the miracle take place in the context of the intercession.

By the way, I’ll be very interested to see your take on God being the First Cause with regard to free human choices.

Oh, and one point I meant to make and forgot. God can’t lose anything of Himself in His Divine Nature, because He is perfect and unchanging. But I wouldn’t say God in His divinity didn’t lose Judas. Judas was/is something outside of God, so for God to lose him in a sense- to lose his love, his faithfulness, etc., does not constitute a change in God. If you are talking strictly in terms of predestination to heaven then obviously you are correct; if Judas went to hell then he obviously was never predestined.

“IN HIM [JESUS CHRIST] ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER” Col 1:17
Greetings Good People in Jesus – 19 Sept 2011 #4
Here I share with you thoughts about the fourth item that should be understood in our being involved with sharing with God in making God’s Eternal decisions – made before we were born. Number four reads as follows.

4) When we speak of “before” and “after,” we almost always mean a time relationship. It will be important that we speak in terms of “prior” and “consequent” rather, terms which do not necessarily involve time at all … but rather an order of things.

The expression “before God’s eternal decisions” is poorly worded. The word “before” here is a time word. “Before I woke up this morning…” “Before Janet decided to help me…” With these matters of God’s decisions “time” will not accurately help us. In these eternal decisions, including those in which we take part, God does not operate in time … but rather in eternity.

A far more helpful phrasing will be “prior to God’s eternal decisions.” And also “consequent to God’s eternal decisions” … and not “after God’s eternal decisions.”

The two words, prior and consequent, are able to be used without any time element involved.
Examples > Prior to the number seven is the number three. No time of any kind is involved here.
Also > In this computer the hard drive is prior in importance than the mouse. These examples involve sequences, an order of things, not any before or after in time. Are these examples simple? Yes, I hope so. Let’s not forget that God Is Infinite Simplicity.

This important use of “prior” and “consequent” … abstracting entirely from any time relationship … will be used in sharing about God’s decisions in eternity … prior to God’s decision to create … and consequent to God’s decision to create … and our, according as God Wills or permits, helping God decide an eternal decision.

What do you think, good people?

In our Christian love let us Bless each other … John (JohnJFarren)

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