We will always sin. But follow Jesus and you will not sin intentionally again


#1

Hello dear friends :slight_smile:

I have been talking to an Evangelical, who wanted to know a bit more about my views and Catholicism. Eventually we talked about salvation. I will show you a passage of our discussion; i would like to have your opinionson how to show that sin is more than just a mistake, but a real offense, andthat penance is needed when we have sinned, as well as works are also needed as much as faith.

**Me **
what do you do of Romans 5 and 6?
J.

Wat about it
Let me read

Marco

For the wedges of sin is death
and you mean one dies in sin

J.
Wages of sin is death
Its why Christ died
He had to die
For us
So that we may be forgiven

**Marco Pesenti
**
but if we sin as christians?

J.
I told you
We ask for forgivenes

Marco Pesenti

so no matter what we do?

J.
As long as we dont do it intentionally, we wil be forgiven
We will always sin. But follow Jesus and you will not sin intentionally again

**Marco Pesenti
**
and what we do intentionally?

J.
Then you are going away from God and you are not following His teachings and not having any faith with Him at all. We are Saved THROUGH Grace BY FAITH!
As i said this is how i view it

*Now, I can’t start with him with the difference between venial and mortal sin, nor the fact that you still have to pay for your sin, even if the punishment has been paid for you by Jesus, because you are part of His body and that your free will gives you responsabilities, also to respond of your actions…How to show that it is possible to (intentionally) sin even if we believe? Surely we may not want it, but some say they believe (and they do) and sin without a problem, for the same reason: they think they will be forgiven. I think it is dangerous, but then i am ask Why don’t I trust God about forgiveness. :stuck_out_tongue:

Fair enough: but what of the sins we do unintentionally? It sounds like since we can trust God, these aren’t problems at all. And then I come back to Romans 5 and 6: We shouldn’t take advantage of God’s mercy, and Paul is quite clear? Should we sin because Chrsit died, or because forgiveness may come? Surely not.
So, how to show this is also true of venial sin? How to show that sin is sin and demands action against it, and not a passive behaviour? I thought of the End of Times, where Jesus says to the people on His left: I don’t know you. But this is, according to him, people who sins intentionally only. I would have thought Since they tried to follow Jesus, they didn’t think to sin. So it has to be a problem with charity, this reason why they are told to go away from Him. *

Thank you


#2

It is impossible to sin accidentally. Sin is deliberate (meaning intentional).


#3

One cannot sin unintentionally


#4

From I John 1,

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

If we do not sin on purpose, then why do we need to repent or confess that sin? After all, would God hold someone responsible for an accident that they had no control over?

I think he may be simply misunderstanding I John 3:6

" So everyone who lives in union with Christ does not continue to sin; but whoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him."

If I understand, this text correctly, then we seek to avoid a lifestyle of sinning. Otherwise, I John chapter 1:8-10 is contradicting I John 3:6

ask him to explain this contradiction in his understanding.


#5

That’s the problem of the view. If there is no unintentional sin, and you cannot sin intentionally again, then it is 100 % sure that you cannot sin again. So, why it is said you can fall from grace? That is the question

Also, let say not intentionally, as for a venial sin. Why is it for an Evangelical impossible? It may bee unintentional and still a sin, though venial, it need penance.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/mortal_versus_venial.htm

Venial sins are slight sins. They do not break our friendship with God, although they injure it. They involve disobedience of the law of God in slight (venial) matters. If we gossip and destroy a person’s reputation it would be a mortal sin. However, normally gossip is about trivial matters and only venially sinful. Additionally, something that is otherwise a mortal sin (e.g. slander) may be in a particular case only a venial sin.* The person may have acted without reflection or under force of habit**. Thus,** not fully intending the action their guilt before God is reduced.** It is always good to remember, especially those who are trying to be faithful but sometimes fall, that for mortal sin it must not only be 1) serious matter, but 2) the person must know it is serious and then 3) freely commit it.*


#6

Who says you cannot sin intentionally again?


#7

J, my Evangelical brother :). If you follow Christ, you simply can’t sin. If you do, you weren’t folllowing. But it seems to run in circles. If you do follow him, you just cannot sin, and this is not human, you should be filled with grace the same way the virgin Mary was. There is venial sin, which can, in my opinion, be unintentional, plus the fact that we can choose to sin.


#8

Of course that is false. From what authority does he draw such a conclusion?


#9

I also believe this is false. But I would like to show him. I guess this view of his comes from a calvinistic view, in which you can’t resist grace.

And tell me, why is sin for you always intentional? Don’t you think venial sin can be unintentional, but still be a sin, even if not mortal?


#10

To have an honest debate, he needs to show you where he thinks sin is unintentional. You need to have him cite an authority. “Because that is what I believe” is not benificial to the discussion…

have you read him the Act of contrition?


#11

Well, I don’t know about him, but I think sin can be unintentional, as shown in my previous post. I think you mixed my opinion with his. Sin can be unintentional for me. It is venial, but it is sin.


#12

Well I guess original sin is unintentional. But I guess you would have to clarify how one could unintentionally sin venialy. I don’t understand how one can unintentionally sin. Perhaps an example?


#13

As said: By force or habit. Let us say one doesn’t commit mortal sin if he swears, and if he doesn’t intend to offend. Still, he offends God. Even a Catholic, not wanting to offend God, could swear out of habit, not meaning anything against God, and still abusing His name.
Unintentional sin would always be venial, right?

Evangelical need to understand the difference between venial and mortal, before we can talk together. Plus, grace can be resisted. Grace is not only of the type “God by His godly power takes possession of you” :smiley:


#14

I think things like addiction or “force of habit” can diminish the culpability of sin. But sinning is a deliberate choice, an action. The last I checked one has to make a choice to pronounce letters in a sequence that forms a word. So, if you say take the Lords name in vain, you did not uninentionally sin, you either did or did not sin. And your responsibility for that sin is in the free will you have or do not have, and habit or ignorance can diminish your culpability. But honestly at some point you did make the choice to defame God Almighty… It did not just happen to come out of your mouth by chance. And that is the difference between gravity, but not “unintentional” One cannot sin unintentionally. You either choose to sin or you do not choose to sin.


#15

Yes it does and yes they can.

Not by chance, by habit or force. It is important not to say by chance, when chance has nothing to do with you. Unintentional evil (sin in a venial matter) doesn’t make you guilty (with death as a result, mortal sin). Still you have to pay for what you did (temporal punishment, which in many cases is no big deal).

Sometimes you don’t control yourself. So you have no culpability. Stilll, you may have armed someone. Therfore Christ. So you sin, venially.

From post number 6:

Full article here ewtn.com/expert/answers/…sus_venial.htm

Venial sins are slight sins. They do not break our friendship with God, although they injure it. …] Additionally, something that is otherwise a mortal sin (e.g. slander) may be in a particular case only a venial sin. The person may have acted without reflection or under force of habit. Thus, not fully intending the action their guilt before God is reduced. …]


#16

Perhaps you could ask him answer if he himself is incapable of sinning.


#17

You cannot commit as in unintentionally. You cannot separate yourself from God or displease him without intention.:shrug: By definition one has to COMMIT a sin. One does not accidentally sin. This has long been the understanding of the faith.


#18

Knowing that he sees sin the way he does, he would surely say no. But the problem is another: the sentence I gave as the title. We will always sin. But follow Jesus and you will not sin intentionally again

If we will always sin, it means also when we are Christians. So if we follow Jesus andd can’t intentionally sin, the only solution is venial sin, which is sometimes unintentional.


#19

A said above, venial sin doesn’t separate you from God, but it injures your friendship with Him. Therefore Purgatory. And I willl stick with my view on intention. I think the analogy of unintentionally hurting someone is clear. You didn’t want to. Still he/she is hurt. You still have to repair.


#20

Where do you get the idea that we always sin?


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