Were Medieval Pope's temporal rulers over most Christian Nations,and excommunicate politically

Did the Medieval Papacy seemingly have full temporal authority over most Christian Nations,two examples being ,Pope Adrian Donation Of Ireland to Henry King Of England,and two Pope’s commanding Scotland to submit to English rule,when the Papacy had only temporal power over Vatican States.

The 2nd and 3rd excommunications of King Robert Bruce of Scotland ,and interdict of Clergy and Nation for not submitting to England at the Pope’s command,were political not religious authority

So how could the Pope excommunicate on temporal authority on political matters? (Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s) when his function is in religious matters,so excommunications fully valid.

So the Scots Nation were fully justified in disobeying the Popes commands which were political

Even the Church says that some Medieval Popes were involved to much into politics,rather than religion.

The Vatican were against USA and UK,invading Iraq illegally,but this was also a political announcement so no excommunication could be pronounced on Catholics for being in the invading forces

Well, I’m biased in favor of the medieval Pontiffs; I think many/most were very holy men.

There’s a serious difference between the US/UK invading Iraq and the medieval wars: The medieval kingdoms were Catholic kingdoms; the US/UK aren’t.

In the 1917 Code of Canon Law, intentionally injuring the Pope was excommunicable, and invading the Papal States/trying to capture the Pope counts as injury, so this isn’t just outdated; it has real consequences.

Benedicat Deus,

Popes have, from time to time, been both religious AND political rulers. Pope Francis is both - he is Pope AND the ruler of the sovereign state of the Vatican City (which is a recognized government, and fields ambassadors, and prints postage, and does many other things that sovereign states do).

An excommunication is NOT a religious act, but is a judicial act (an act of law, not of doctrine).


I agree. I think Gregory VII Hildebrand is a hero for our times. It would be good for some of our contemporary politicians and leaders to beg pardon from the Holy Father. :slight_smile:

You’re unlikely to hear anything in agreement with your opening statement here but in the early middle ages the Pope’s temporal power was more or less the continuation of the office of the Roman Emperor, and kingdoms and lands were his to grant or withdraw as and when it suited him.Why do you think nations had to request papal permission to conquer the new world or to take territories in Europe less they invite an excommunication?

Does anyone remember when the Pope made Henry stand outside his castle barefoot in the snow wearing a sack cloth for questioning his authority? Or of course there are things like the donation of Constantine which was later proven to have been forged by Franciscan?] monks.

In a world with only one universal religion paid homage to by all, being able to threaten rival leaders with a boot out the door gave the Papacy some considerable leverage in politics. It still does in some places like the Philippines today.

You seem to be fixated on Robert the Bruce and keep posting about his excommunication. I am not sure what purpose that serves.

YES, the Pope had authority to do what he did. Yes, the Popes did exercise authority in temporal matters.

Misguided nationalism, if we go by the OP’s location. :rolleyes:

YES, the Pope had authority to do what he did. Yes, the Popes did exercise authority in temporal matters.


We can show charity and patience towards the OP. Obviously this issue is a stumbling block for the OP. How would you feel if your homeland had been conquered by another power with the Pope’s blessing? Perhaps you would struggle with it as well - rightly or wrongly.

Well, it did happen to part of my country. :wink:

And strangely, I don’t struggle with that part - I’m glad that the missionaries accompanying that process brought the Catholic faith to our country. (I do struggle with what Salazar wanted to do to Goa, but that has nothing to do with the Pope.)

Arguably the Catholic faith was already present with the Malabar St. Thomas Christians :thumbsup:

Very true. :thumbsup: However, it was the Portuguese missionaries - and later, the Irish - who brought the Catholic faith to other parts of the country. The Eastern Rite Catholics, though of a far more ancient lineage, remain confined to one particular state. :slight_smile:

But two Popes were excommunicating and interdicting here for Temporal Law the reasons were political ,not Canon Disciplinary Law

Ah well,Maybe your the Gal who can tell me what happened to all the unfortunate wives of priests,whom Pope Greg’V11 had put into slavery,and sold to the overlords and their children separated from them and slaves of the Church for life…See ,Newadvent Encyclopedia ,Celibacy and the Clergy.Blessed .Pope Urban 11,had the children abandoned,what happened to them ??Were these Clergy marriages valid or invalid? If some were valid consummated and consented ,not even the Pope can dissolve them—Catholic Catechism

Misguided racism going by your racist comments.I never mentioned nationalism or said i was or wasn’t a nationalist, and everyone in my country are not nationalist,and coming from your location you are seemingly misguided and not learned about my patch in this world .

I am on here to find answers to questions concerning my Catholic Faith,and its history,also to arm myself against the Fundamentalists,hostile to the Catholic Church.If you have the intelligence,you will see this in all my threads and interpret them correctly

Pope Gregory VII is a Saint of the Roman Catholic Church.

To come over here and post unfounded allegations against him is grave matter indeed.

With Respect.If you read my threads and interpret them correctly they refer to Catholic Faith,not politics.

But i feel i must correct you and sorry i have to mention politics.for you raised the issue incorrectly
My ancient homeland has never been conquered by any power ,(unlike your homeland that was conquered by Scots and others) that includes the Roman Legions ,no Pope ever gave his blessing to conquer Scotland
On the contrary,before the excommunications by Pope Clement V 1305-1314,and Pope John XX11,1316-1334 two previous Pope’s,Pope Boniface V111,1294-1295,put Scotland under their special protection (and subject only to Holy See},against that, other power.

Also ,Pope Honorius 111,1218 AD.'Honorius Bishop,to his dearest son in Christ illustrious King Alexander Of Scots and his successors FOREVER.Considering the reverence and devotion towards the Roman Church which we know you and your predecessors to have from times long past we most strictly forbid that it be permitted to anyone except the Pope of Rome or legate sent from his side to publish a sentence of interdict or excommunication to the Kingdom of Scotland because the SCOTTISH CHURCH IS SUBJECT TO THE APOSTOLIC SEE AS A SPECIAL DAUGHTEER WITH NO INTERMEDIARY.

So the issue is certainly no stumbling block for me

Before you accuse me of unfounded allegations ,examine yourself first.
Firstly,You break the rules of this website ,by making racist remarks about me.
You also have committted a sin by making racist remarks against a fellow Catholic,I hope you confess this at confession.

There was no allegations against Greg’ V11,i asked what information happened to the wives and innocent children of clergy when made slaves of the Church and Overlords,and approved by Popes Gregory and Urban,slavery was legal at this time,
Read Newadvent Encyclopedia,Celibacy and the Clergy,(Second Edition)-----Read the Latern Councils 1 and 2,read the Canons,3and 7,wives and children were told to separated from the Clergy.
The Church decreed that all Clergy should be celabate

Furthermore most Popes were Holy men,but some were bad and bad sinners.Listen to Jimmy Aikin Video on Catholic Answers

St Peter ,First Pope denied he knew Jesus,The Apostles abandoned Jesus,St Augustine was a terrible sinner,but repented and became a Saint.Lots of the Saints were sinners

Who are you to judge? :stuck_out_tongue:

The Church decreed that all Clergy should be celabate

Absolutely true. If you don’t like that, there’s always Protestantism, Hinduism, and Islam.

Furthermore most Popes were Holy men,but some were bad and bad sinners.Listen to Jimmy Aikin Video on Catholic Answers

Agreed. But this is Saint Gregory VII Hildebrand we’re talking about: a man who died in exile for following his conscience and defying the abuse of temporal powers. To try to link him to nebulous “bad sinners” is a non sequitur.

St Peter ,First Pope denied he knew Jesus,The Apostles abandoned Jesus,St Augustine was a terrible sinner,but repented and became a Saint.Lots of the Saints were sinners

Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future. :wink:

Have you a problem what i post?.Well you seem to be fixated for my supposed fixation for RTB,there is no fixation,a thorough look at my threads you will see i have only started one thread to debate, about RTB,any other threads i mentioned about him in other debates were given as an example…I post repeatedly about Saints and other Church matters to ,so would you say i am fixated about these repeats to ?Lots of people on hear repeat same prayers ,are they all fixated?
All my posts serve a purpose to me to know more about Catholic Faith and its History,and for armour and knowledge to throw at Fundamentalists hostile to Catholic Church.

I respect you opinion about the Popes temporal authority,if religious matters are also involved,but when they are solely and only about politics,i cant see how the Pope could excommunicate,its my opinion right or wrong

I have already told you this

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