Were St John the Baptist and St Thomas Moore not pastoral enough?

Were St John the Baptist and St Thomas Moore not pastoral enough?

Are we to follow their example or is it wrong to tell people they are living in sin because that would make them feel bad.

Wouldn’t they feel worse in the fires of Hell? :frowning:

Good and interesting questions to ponder…

First. Why is this in the Liturgy and Sacraments section?!

Second. Who told you it is wrong to tell people they live in sin?!

Third. Was John the Baptist a pastor to Herod? Was Thomas Moore a pastor to Henry VIII? Your comparison is absolutely irrelevant!

But John Fisher arguably was.

I second the post by JurisPrudens and add this: you seem to be wrongly getting sarcastic about Amoris Laetitia. That document does not say that irregular marriages and non-marriages should be ignored. We should be as prepared as St. John the Baptist or St. Thomas More to say a firm No to such unions and stand by Church teaching. Amoris Laetitia is being wrongly interpreted by several groups, so don’t listen to them. The document does not and cannot change Church teaching, and it does not say or imply that couples in irregular marriages or non-marriages should be given Communion.

I get your point…good one! These days are ones in which we most definately with humility need to be on our guard but also make clear what sin is and isn’t and stand strong. Good pastoral guidance requires a clear understand of sin and God’s mercy toward those who repent.

In His LOVE,

Since neither individual was clergy, I don’t get the analogy.

Having a hard time digesting the Joy of Love? Many are.

First: Why all the exclamation points!? I think there is room for discussion here. I’m trying to learn. :slight_smile:

Second: I’m sorry if this is in the wrong section. It said this section has to do with Confession and Vatican Rules so I thought this was appropriate. Where should it go? (and would you please kindly let me know without shouting :wink: )

Third: Pope Francis exhortation states, " “Hence it can no longer simply be said that all those in any ‘irregular’ situations are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace.” So I wonder how the actions of those saints would be seen by him.

Fourth: Why is it only relevant if they are a pastor?

No sarcasm here, just some questions I feel are valid and worthy of discussion.

My understanding is that Footnote 351 gives permission for those in irregular marriages to receive the sacraments.

Different groups are interpreting it different ways and it seems to be clear as mud. How do we know who to trust?

You didn’t say in the OP.

What is the question again? Is it about pastoring or about receiving the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist?

Well, both.

My understanding is that pastoring can apply to more than just Church Pastors:

concerning or appropriate to the giving of spiritual guidance.

Of course spiritual guidance is a part of receiving the Sacramento of Holy Eucharist and much more.

I just wonder in light of the Pope’s recent statements if these Saints would be seen as too legalistic today?

IMHO it’s more a question of prudence (or good judgment if you will) rather than being pastoral or not. Sometimes (rarely though) a pastoral approach will involve directly addressing a person’s behaviour with a view to helping them to address the problem. That said, this first of all requires you to have the type of relationship with the person which allows you to speak that freely, and secondly requires you to deliver this message in a way that helps them to understand the problem. In other words, it’s about accompanying people rather than beating them over the head with their own sinfulness!

In addition however, you also need to be fully aware of their personal situation rather than just making assumptions about it. So, just because a person’s living in an irregular relationship doesn’t mean that they’re “living in sin”. Of course, even if they are that in itself doesn’t mean that they’re condemning themselves to the fires of hell - only God can know that.

Footnote 351 relates to a section of the text where the Holy Father observes that: “…it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end”. The footnote then notes that such help can, in certain cases, include the help of the sacraments.

In other words, if a person seek to live in God’s grace then the Church (which includes the lay faithful as well as the clergy) should support them in this, aware that it may involve struggles and missteps and also aware of the healing power of the sacraments. To put it another way, Francis isn’t saying that all those in irregular relationships should receive the Eucharist. Rather he’s saying that, for some, the sacraments can help them in their faith journey but this decision needs to be made in the broader context of their accompaniment.

What is their motivation to repent then? As the Catechism states:

136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

Their motivation comes from desiring to live the life that God wants them to live as opposed to being based solely on fear. Note also the wording which the Catechism uses - “can” not “will”.

Yes, no one can determine if someone has been sent to Hell, only that they can be if they choose not to repent.

But the point I was making is that repentance is a requirement for Mercy.

From Dymphna’s Road:

"Mama, what does pastoral mean?
It means, Child, that when your father and his new “wife” go to church the priest has to pretend that I’m dead.”

Here is the “Pastoral guidance” that was given to my Dad:

My Dad had affairs and left my Mom after more than 40 years of marriage.

He lives on a golf course and she lives in a mobile home…you do the math. (He told her she wouldn’t get a dime!)

My Mom applied for an annulment but it was denied.

After seeing him and his girlfriend (the one he met in an “anointed moment”, not the earlier one which was “sent by God”) frequently at daily Mass, his pastor told them that since they are clearly in love he would marry them.

So the pastor performed a “Catholic wedding” for them at morning mass–without an annulment.

My Dad has been a leader in the Church for many, many years and has photos of himself kissing Pope JPII’s ring and standing with Cardinal Ratzinger which he loves to share.

He leads a Catholic Men’s Bible Study, in his parish, gives retreats and brings communion to the sick.

As the patriarch of our family with many grandchildren, he is bringing scandal to my kids as well as many others.

I have written to him imploring him to please repent before it is too late. He is now 80 and has cancer. He responds that I am judging him and haven’t forgiven him.

I tell him that I love him, forgive him, and I don’t want any harm to come to him. I want to be in Heaven with him!

I don’t think this new development from Pope Francis will help very much.

Please friends, if you see this say a prayer for my Dad and for the priest that “married” them.

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