Why does the Messiah have to be a political human figure vulnerable to humanity’s sinful nature? And What is the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah’s Servant of the LORD? What are the Jews biggest arguments and objections to Jesus
You might start with: Why Jews Don’t Believe In Jesus.
They claim that Jesus could not be the long-awaited messiah because Joseph was Jesus’ step father i.e. the messiah must be be a direct descendent from the Davidic line in order to possess the ancestral right to David’s throne.
The changing of the kingdom from the branch of Solomon to another branch of the house of David is clearly foretold in the bible: “Behold the day is coming, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a Righteous Branch, and a king shall reign and prosper. … In his days Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name that Jehovah proclaimeth him, Our Righteousness.”—Jer. 23:6—
“Thus saith the Lord of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, he shall have none to sit upon the throne of David.”—Jer. 36:30
“Here the complete overturning of the Solomonic line is declared: it was the line that was exalted, and which should thenceforth be debased, while the debased or obscure line of Nathan, which had never made any pretensions to the throne, was to be exalted in due time in its representative, the Messiah, born of Mary, according to the flesh.”
In other words, it could not be through Joseph - for no man of that line shall ever sit upon the throne of the Lord. That leaves Mary.
Interesting article explains…
Also, the Jews did not believe that the Messiah would be Divine.
As you might imagine, the question about Jews and Messiah has come up quite often here and these are useful links for understanding various approaches to the Jewish concept of Messiah -
Jewish Virtual Library
My Jewish Learning
There is one thing you really do have to bear in mind - while to Christians the New Testament is reportage and sacred scripture, to us it has no more significance as reportage or sacred scripture than the Qur’an or Book of Mormon have to you. In other words, telling me about all the wonderful ‘evidence’ (or whatever) in the NT will convince me about as much as a Muslim telling you about all the wonderful ‘evidence’ (or whatever) in the Qur’an.
Why? Why does the Messiah have to be a generic human political figure vulnerable to the sinful nature of humankind?
There are several arguments: about two dozen of them. One of the most essential is that the Messiah and the Messianic Age are supposed to usher in an era of worldwide peace among the nations and the absence of sin, during which everyone acknowledges and worships G-d. This has not happened either within the human lifetime of Jesus or during the following 2,000 years since His death and resurrection. As I explained in another thread, a rebuttal to this Jewish view offered by Christian scholars is that (1) the era of peace on earth will not occur until the Second Coming of Christ; and/or (2) the peace that Jesus brought is an internal peace of the soul. The difficulty that Jews have with the first argument is that there is no convincing evidence in the Hebrew Bible that the Messiah is supposed to come a second time. On the contrary, the “job” of the Messiah is supposed to be fully accomplished during his first visit. Christians counter-argue that Jesus brought the peace of redemption to all of mankind through His sacrifice, and followed this by providing the Church with the Sacrament of Baptism, which lifts the burden of original sin due to the fallen nature of mankind. (Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin.) Nonetheless, at an individual level, according to Christian teaching, the salvation of one’s soul may be in jeopardy without partaking of the other Sacraments of the Church, especially if one does not confess mortal sins before one’s death.
As another poster mentioned, a second reason why Jews do not regard Jesus as the Messiah is that they do not believe the Messiah is supposed to be divine. IOW, the Messiah is not the equivalent to G-d. The former is indeed an exceptional human being whose standing is equal to that of Moses, but no more than this. If Jesus was indeed the Messiah, then He was not G-d (Nazarene Jews believe this); if, on the other hand, Jesus was G-d, he could not have been the Messiah. Further, if the second proposition is correct, then the notion of G-d Incarnate becomes introduced into Jewish theology, which most Jews cannot accept.
The so-called proof-text of Isaiah has been interpreted by Hebrew scholars as Israel’s being the servant of G-d, and has nothing to do with the future Messiah. This has been debated endlessly with Christian scholars.
Nothing to add…watching to learn!
Of all the major world religions, Christianity is the only one I know of in which miracles are happing everyday (not just subjectively). I have been witness to several in my lifetime. I have experienced one as well. I have been a practicing Catholic, though a very imperfect one, since I was twenty-one years old. Since I tend to surround myself with Christian friends and associations I am certain to be ignorant of miraculous healings, deliverance, and experiences by Jews, Muslims, Etc. Do devout Jews see the Lord active today as Christians do? Do they “hear” Him when they commune with Him in prayer? I realize I’m asking in broad strokes and that not everyone experiences all of the above, but is any or all of it common experience to Jews?
Thanks for this discussion😌
Curious. Does the fact that Jesus said the temple would be destroy, and it was not say something? Judaism requires a temple and animal sacrifice. True Judaism has not been practiced since Christ (who we say is the final sacrifice). Does that not say something. If Christianity is wrong and Judaism is right why would God allow his temple to be destroyed and not be rebuilt for going on 2000 years
I was thinking the same thing when I saw this post. Thousands of miracles in His name. I was a skeptic for an long time, I searched and studied for over 40 years, I finally went on a journey to Lourdes and found what I was looking for. Still the old adage is true, I paraphrase, “to those who believe no explanation is necessary, to those who don’t none is possible.”
“10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of mercy and supplication, so that when they look on him whom they have thrust through, they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and they will grieve for him as one grieves over a firstborn. 11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.”
-Zechariah 12:10-11 (Emphasis mine)
Here we have God speaking through the prophet Zechariah speaking of One “whom they have thrust through” and comparing him to the dying and rising Aramaean fertility god Hadadrimmon! What is the Jewish interpretation of this passage? Also this theological argument that God is too great to incarnate Himself as fully human and fully God, well to say God cannot do that is to put limitations on The Eternal Infinite God and yes I know there are things God cannot do like die. But souls in general cannot “die” Yeshua died a human death on the cross but his soul, even it were purely human would not have died it would just descended into Sheol which is what his fully-human fully-divine soul did in order to Abraham and the Jewish ancestors to Heaven. If God was so great as to not take a corporeal form how was He appear before Abraham in and wrestle with Jacob?(Atheists don’t pull your deconstructionist “El vs YHWH” Bull-loney! This discussion is predominantly for Jews and Catholic I don’t want to hear these outdated and biased Atheist attacks)
I still strongly object to the idea that the Messiah must be this generic heroic political leader that must be purely sinful human!
In reading the thread, my question for a jewish member of the forum is;
Are Jews still looking for a Messiah, and how could one know who is of the line of David? Are such things still kept track of?
Is the New Testament useful as history?
Hasn’t much of it - as history - been corroborated by non-Christian historians and archeology?
Are the following gospels historical or not?
the “Secret Book of James”
Book of Thomas the Contender
Dialogue of the Saviour
Gospel of Judas (also called the “Gospel of Judas Iscariot”)
Gospel of Mary (also called the “Gospel of Mary Magdalene”)
Gospel of Philip
Greek Gospel of the Egyptians
These would be historical in their description of gnosticism…not of real events in the first century as they were written far later.
Good question. What bothers me about their expectations vis-a-vis their political figure who will be nothing more than a human messiah, is the notion that this messiah they are waiting for will be limited, as a mere human, like king David, to the few years he will have on this little planet i.e. he will “bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people”, "establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles, “rebuild the Temple (and re-establish its worship) and finally restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land.” What then…? I suppose Israel, in this horrible world where sin abounds, will be the center of everything in this sinful world i.e. no hope for eternal blessings for mankind in the heavenly Jerusalem. In other words, Isaiah 9 will not be realized, nor will the following: “But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 5 Jesus as the messiah, promises a new heaven and a new earth - a new and everlasting heavenly Jerusalem - where sin is no more and life will be forever, with each person perfectly conformed to God’s divine will, something that can never happen on this side of eternity:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time **on and forever.
**The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.
This is a misunderstanding of Jewish belief. There is indeed abundant “hope for eternal blessings for mankind in the heavenly Jerusalem.” And one need not convert to Judaism to attain these blessings, that is, there will be no forced conversions of any kind. The recognition and adoration of G-d will be self-evident to everyone and morality will prevail in all the nations of the world, not merely in Israel. There is no political conception of a world order in the Messianic Age.
I had this question also. Will the expected Jewish Messiah bring peace to the Middle East?