Now on councils, Orthodox would say that there have been no Ecumenical Councils since the church was divided since the great schism. The idea being that the west by itself cannot be Ecumenical since ecumenical means universal.
I’m sure that is clear as mud, and I NEVER intend to offend anyone, it’s justn this *#%$ stroke I had that prevents me from expressing myself clearly.
There are some questions about the book that I would like to ask off thread, I just wanted to ask about them because they seem to be stated wierdly in the book and I need an Eastern Catholic to show me what exactly he is saying.
I will be PM’ing you one of these days with the questions if you don’t mind.
Theosis - now correct me if I am wrong, this does not say that all of the world will be redeemed to God even those who died in mortal sin and or the devil and evil spirits? How does this work with Theosis?
No, Theosis is not an answer but a process, the individual journey in faith by which we strive to become more like God and restore ourselves to our original state in creation, that is, to more perfectly reflect that we were created in God’s image and likeness.
I don’t have a list, but the reason the Orthodox Church wasn’t involved is we either repudiated them outright (Florence), or we weren’t involved on any level (Vatican II). The list of ones that had Orthodox involvement which were repudiated is far shorter than the list of councils in which we had no involvement.
Historically at least the first seven Councils that are accepted as ecumenical by both Catholics and Orthodox were NOT called by the Pope and were NOT presided over by him. In fact, Nicaea I, which formed the “first draft” of the Creed that both Catholics and Orthodox recite at Mass/Divine Liturgy, wasn’t even called by a religious authority. It was called by the Emperor Constantine. The original seven Councils likewise not held in Rome, but in the East because the issues being resolved were problems that arose in the East. The Pope of Rome was not even present at those Councils. That being said, he did send delegates. The Pope’s approval of the Council was seen as necessary, not because it is his job to put the final stamp of approval on the decrees of a Council, but because without him the College of Apostles would be incomplete, just as without the Patriarch of Antioch, or Jerusalem, or Constantinople, etc., the College of Apostles is incomplete.
So the standard that the Pope alone may call and/or preside over an Ecumenical Council is simply historically false.
Ooooo!!! If you want to talk about Kyr Raya and/or his book “Face of God,” do feel free to contact me as well. Kyr Raya is one of my personal heroes, and “Face of God” is one of my all-time favorite books.
Why would the approval of the Pope not be necessary in order for a Council to be Ecumenical? As head of one of the original five Patriarchates, I would believe that his approval would be every bit as necessary as, say, the approval of His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.
Again, with regards to Councils, I believe the most fundamental question should not be whether or not a Council is Ecumenical, but whether or not it is “orthodox,” i.e. does not contain error. Even Roman theologians are not in agreement on what makes a Council ecumenical, and Pope Paul VI himself referred to the 14 post-Schism Councils as “General Synods of the West.” Eastern (Byzantine) Catholics do not celebrate these Councils because, frankly, the East was not involved (except in a few, such as Lyons, Florence, Vatican I, and Vatican II). Liturgically the Byzantine East only venerates the first seven Councils. “As we pray, so we believe,” as the saying goes. :shrug: But Eastern Catholics do recognize the orthodoxy of the 14 “General Synods of the West.”
Nine_Two, although you are correct that the Orthodox did not participate in Vatican II, it would be wrong to assume that Orthodox representatives were not present. They were just not permitted to participate in the proceedings.
That being said, however, Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras did say to the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch, Maximos IV, that he spoke on behalf of Orthodoxy at the Council. An interesting sentiment to be sure.
But the purpose of this thread was not to discuss Councils and which are or are not ecumenical. It was to discuss the differences in Eastern and Western theology. I believe we should get that back on track, and possibly open a new thread discussing ecumenical councils.