i have heard on other threads that jews and muslims have been ranting to benedict XVI over the content of the TLM, what is so offensive to them about it?
I don’t think its the Latin mass in general that some Jews and Muslims have raised objections to.
Its the liturgy in the Tridentine missal for certain days that are being complained about as insensitive.
On Good Friday, the Tridentine liturgy calls for the conversion of the “perfidious Jews”. On the last Sunday after Pentecost, the tridentine mass calls for conversion to those in the “darkness of Islamism”.
There might be a few other phrases which raise the ire, but those are two of the biggest bees in the bonnet of some Jewish and Muslim activists.
Well, as if most of them care… but I think the upsetting thing to the ones who bother following our liturgical practice is that the TLM minces no words in letting people know the Jews and Muslims are wrong. People can debate whether words like “blindness” are the most charitable way of going about it, but certain groups would be offended by a clear reference to our belief in their need for conversion no matter how nicely we put it across.
My understanding is that the term “perfidis Judaeis–unfaithful Jews” was removed in the 1962 revision; you have to go back to something prior to 1962 to find it.
Should we CARE what heretics and heathens think of our Liturgy?
I for one do not.
By the way, ‘Perfidious Jews’ was taken out of the Good Friday bidding prayers in the late 50’s I believe, so it is not in the Missal of 1962.
Presuming that’s true(I assume you’re right on this), I don’t know if the distinction as to what year’s missal the phrase is included in makes that much difference to the activists that are complaining about it.
I was only trying to answer the question as to why they are offended, not whether anyone should care if they are offended.
i think benedict XVI should respond back with
'I don’t personally like your denial of christ!"
I am another that does not care. When the Muslim countries stop persecuting Christians in their own country then it is time to start worrying about how we offend them.
Its not really the Jews and Muslims…Its the intellectual elitist minded pseudo Catholic theologians who hate the TLM so much that they are being upset by proxy for the the Jews and Muslims. It is a last ditch effort by the modernists to thwart the indult.
It aint gonna work
I believe it just has “The Conversion” of the Jews.
It also includes passages consistent with Christian Scripture and Tradition, that the Jews live in “blindness” and “darkness” and prayers “that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ.” This prayer was just chanted at the traditional Good Friday liturgy.
The TLM Mass Liturgies also offend the Mohammedans because it calls for their conversion as "infidels."
Of course this is not so serious as they do the same to us. But then hypocrites cannot be reasoned with.
You see, if the Vatican tells them Mon-Sat that they have the Salvation of the Old Covenant, (They will NEVER EVER tell you which of the 4-5 Covenants they’re talking about. The Jews Assume Mosaic, We assume Abraham’s) and are OK waiting for the Messiah, then stating we ask for their conversion is an OXYMORON.
So, the Jews are correct based on the Trap Door the Vatican II church set up for itself when it opened the “Old Wine Flask” of the TLM.
The VATICAN problem with the TLM is:
- IT’s NOW POLITICAL.
- IT opens up the Pre VATII traditions that were suppose to be buried FOREVER & replaced by doublespeak Ecumenism.
- IT EXPOSES THE DE FACTO elephant in the kitchen…there are 2 “Church of Christ” churches “SUBSISTING” in the “catholic” religion.
Oh what a web we weave…
The question is whether we have to concede anything (remove all offensive phrases) in order to receive the Motu Proprio, just as Mel Gibson did in order to get his Passion “approved”?
Yes… so lets butcher some beautiful prayers in the name of political correctness.
It wouldn’t surprise me if it happened in such a Springtime…
I really do not care if it is not PC. There are many things that I do not agree with in other religions and I doubt that they care about my Catholic feelings.
The changes made gave a false impression of understanding, respect and tolerance towards others. It is far better for everyone to show the true side of Catholicism.
Praying for conversions is an important aspect of Catholicism, though. That is one of our traditions. We should not have to change the wording of our Mass to pacify another religion or group of people.
Seems as if the Lutherans, the Orthodox Church, and Anglicans feel the same way. Tough balancing act to say the least.
More than two, really, if every dissenter group can consider itself a “Church of Christ” church “SUBSISTING” in the “catholic” religion.
Yes, look here – signonsandiego.com/news/world/20070423-0537-vatican-jews-.html
Tells you something about the TLM vs. Novus Ordo, methinks.